- [Announcer] Live from your public media studios, WVIA Presents Keystone Edition Business, a public affairs program that goes beyond the headlines to address issues in Northeastern and Central Pennsylvania.

This is Keystone Edition Business.

And now moderator Steve Stumbris.

- Hi, I'm Steve Stumbris.

Creative entrepreneurs turn their talents in art, music, acting, tattooing, and other skills into a livelihood.

It's more than selling paintings or performing on stage.

You need business skills to succeed.

It's a challenge, but the rewards can be both financial and personal.

WVIA news reporter Sarah Santo explains what goes into being a creative entrepreneur.

- [Sarah] Following your passion may not always lead to financial success, but creative entrepreneurship offers a way to turn talent into a sustainable business.

From digital content creators to independent artisans, creatives fuel industries like design media and e-commerce.

Creative professionals like artists, musicians, and actors must find ways to blend their talents with business savvy.

A common challenge for many creators is finding a balance between their artistry and business demands.

Creative entrepreneurs have to juggle marketing, contract negotiation, and financial management while still honing their craft.

Some colleges and universities, particularly ones with a focus on performing or visual arts, are now offering courses in creative entrepreneurship to teach their students these skills before they graduate and look for work.

The Pennsylvania Council on the Arts also offers a creative entrepreneur accelerator program to help creatives starting their own for-profit business, or those who already have a for-profit micro business.

To learn more, visit WVIA.org.

For Keystone edition business, I'm Sarah Santo, WVIA News.

- I'd like to introduce our panelists here to share their perspectives.

Dan Kimbro is the CEO of Park multimedia based in Wilkesboro.

Dr. Emily Martin is a trained opera singer who also teaches vocal performance at Bucknell University, and Pedro Reyes is a visual artist and muralist from Sunbury.

If you have any questions, please ask at keystone@WVIA.org.

Pedro, Emily.

Dan, I'm looking forward to this conversation.

I've really enjoyed learning about each of your creative work, your creative processes, and sharing with our viewers how you go about balancing that with profession and with business.

Emily, I'd like to start with you.

In your career, you've been a professional performing artist and opera singer, and more recently, as an entrepreneur, you advise creative professionals.

- Yep.

- Can you walk us through what it was like taking those first steps from artist to business and entrepreneur?

- Sure so I started the business actually during Covid with a colleague of mine because we had a lot of opera singers and musicians saying, what do I do next?

They weren't getting the education in school.

And so as I had had so much experience through my singing, I thought, oh, this is the perfect opportunity.

And we started with things like CVs resumes, those kinds of things.

But then we realized that they actually needed to learn more project development skills.

So I was new to it as well.

So I had been doing my own projects and I had to really learn, you know, how to do a budget for the business, how to do marketing, social media was a huge thing, how to sell myself rather than just my professional singing career.

So yeah, it was quite a leap.

Luckily during Covid, I had a little bit of time while I was at home to think about it, but it's ever evolving.

- I've often talked with, well, colleagues of yours among the faculty at Bucknell University, some of them early in their career, say, the first time you really, really learn something is when you have to teach it.

- Yes.

- So were there parallels with teaching someone advising coaching entrepreneurs as you yourself, were learning to grow your own business?

- Yeah, I mean, I, it's, I always say with teaching, it's like staying one step ahead.

It's like the best way to do it.

So I, a lot of times would feel like I was one step ahead, but I was really, it was always like, somebody would say to me, I wanna write a grant.

And I would say, oh, I've only written like one grant, so I've gotta figure out how to write grants.

And then now I do a lot of grant writing.

So yeah, it's a constant, me teaching myself, me educating myself, and actually my clients educating me in a lot of ways.

- Pedro, I'd like to hear about your journey as an artist.

And I know I've heard you say you want to do something in life working that is, that you never retire from.

- Yes.

- Tell, tell us about that.

- So that started because after 10 years of being a certified Nurse's assistant, my biggest takeaway in moving onto a different career was the fact that we tend to live very long.

You know, it's always the individuals who think they should have been gone a long time ago, you know, well earlier in their, into their life, they just managed to stay around for the a hundred years.

(all laughing) And so my takeaway was I was seeing everyone around me around that 65 to 67 age, just kind of retiring and then not knowing what to do with themselves because they had been working 40, 50 years in something.

And then just, what do you do when bills are paid and, and everything's okay now, it's just up to you to make the decision.

And so I was lucky that I had artistic talents.

And so I went back to school shortly for graphic design, learned all the ins outs of, of, you know, composition and design principles, and just ran with it.

My goal is to do it, you know, up until hours before I'm moving on, so to speak.

Picasso did it, you know, and when I look at the comparison, I know we're not supposed to compare, but nowadays it's really, it's really fun to just put yourself in someone else's shoes.

And with as nice as we have it nowadays, why wouldn't you do it?

So I play with this idea that, you know, he had 50,000, I'd love 50,000, even though- - Creating a piece of art.

- Yes even though he did start 20 years before.

- You can do it.

- Yeah, I don't have to mix my own paints, so I'm already up.

(group laughing) - Little bit of a headstart there.

What draws you to your particular form of creative expression?

We've been seeing some of your paintings.

Some of your murals.

- Yeah.

Honestly, being able to, to physically put some sort of visual representation of the, the moment that I'm sort of being commissioned to do, or, or that I'm just working on, you know, the Eagles are going to the Super Bowl.

I was so busy with work that I did not realize that the Eagles were going to the Super Bowl.

And so it's midnight, I'm painting, like I normally am just madness.

And I hear it on a commercial, and they're like, this, you know, Super Bowl Chiefs and Eagles.

And I was like, oh my goodness.

And I'm also a barber and cosmetologist.

And so for me it was like, I've cut the barber, you know, I've cut the Eagle's logo into people's hairs like seven, eight times.

It was like, well, how do I get this word out now?

It was like, paint another picture.

You know?

And so it was, you know, a portrait with a child and the Eagle's logo on his head and, you know, post at the following day.

And now, you know, we're doing Eagle's logos.

So it's a bit of a communication thing to just kind of like, hey, there's a train going by and it's going in this direction.

You know, you should jump on it or, or just let it be.

- Dan, we heard Pedro talk about okay, he also has another profession, other professional skills.

And I know that sometimes balances the finances so that you can create.

Can you talk about that, the balance between creating and needing to pay the bills?

- It's a hard one, and that's, I luck out that I work in a visual medium as well, where I can do videography or photography or a lot of those different things.

And so it's easier to sort of be able to do things financially.

But it's a balance sometimes because the more time that I'm out in the field shooting or working on something, the bills aren't always getting paid because I'm shooting in that moment.

And so, like, that's not paying the bills til after to get the project done.

And so if you've got a week where you've got multiple projects going, it's great 'cause you're out and you're working, you're doing all those things.

But at some point you have to sit down and figure out paying the bills and running all the reports and doing all those things.

And so you have to figure out how to balance it.

You said you were up at midnight painting and, you know, it's one of those things that the creative aspect of it doesn't always happen during the nine to five, because a lot of businesses are running nine to five.

And so I may be doing phone calls and meetings and, and consultations with clients during the day.

And at six o'clock after dinner, now it's time to sit down and start editing or creating or doing all the other things.

And so it's just time management and balancing it all.

- What were some of the things that drew you to being a creative professional?

How did you know that that was the path?

- I don't know.

I don't remember a time where I didn't create things.

And so it was just one of those, I've always had a hand in doing creative things.

I remember even in high school, we had an African American sort of fraternity and sorority.

It wasn't a real one, but for high school.

And we used to do a step show and like I remember I would design the tickets every year, or I would design the poster and the little things.

And it wasn't anything that I ever wanted to do long term.

I just always found myself creating.

And then when I got into college, the goal was to be a psychologist and do other things.

And I hurt myself playing football.

And one day there was a call out at the radio station and they needed an announcer.

And I was like, man, I know football.

And that was where I ended up in radio and video.

And it sort of went from there, but it was never a plan.

I just was always doing it.

- Wow.

- I just wanted to make a comment about the idea of finishing the project.

Something I think a lot of people might not understand is it being a creative entrepreneur, you have to finish the project before you get paid.

So quite often, like say, I'm gonna do an opera gig, I am somewhere for four weeks before I get the, the first check on opening night.

Right.

So I have to figure out financially how to actually do that four weeks.

- And it's interesting that for a while that was my model and I had to switch it because I used to work in weddings as well.

And it was one of those, you do the wedding and it was like, all right, the wedding is done.

I have to edit everything, and I'm still waiting to get paid.

And I'm was like, I can't do that anymore.

So like, I had to go to deposit method where I had to get paid ahead of time, something to be able to pay the bills and afford gas to get to the wedding.

That's three hours away.

And so, yeah, it's the balance of, I know I've gotta get the product done, and I need that carrot of waiting to get the full pay.

But being able to survive the in-between as well.

And how do you sort of advance yourself.

- Yes, important.

- I was gonna say yes, (group laughing) which is why I barber, I'm also a cosmetologist, which is the craziest thing.

But it's the idea that you wanna do this thing, but you have to still oblige by the normal society rules.

Pay your bills, you know, make sure you have a roof over your head.

Make sure your kids are eating and so you do what you can and taking care of your responsibilities first.

And then you have that fever at night or early morning where you could continue keeping that dream alive.

And I think the long-term aspect of knowing like, all right, you're only failing if you decide to quit.

You know, this is the name of the game.

It's ups and downs, but you only, you know, lose if you give up.

- Are there times, and this might be for any of you, but, maybe Dan, I'll turn to you on this one.

Times that, well, you are involved in the business and there are, there are goals that you have to hit.

There are commissions, contracts.

When and how do you make space to be creative?

What does it take to keep that practice?

- It's forcing yourself to do it.

Really.

Like, I get up earlier in the morning than I would like to ever, but like, I have to get up in the morning.

I have to meditate and center myself.

And I find that, you know, I can look at my to-do list.

And it may not be the creative action of making it, but like, alright, I don't have to get this done.

Ooh.

You know, it'd be cool.

And like I can take the notes of how I'm going to work on those projects and that mental process of not the physical making of it, but the creativity of what it's going to look like.

It's usually in the early mornings where I'm meditating and I'm sort of in my own space where I can find and figure out, oh, so this video, I need to do this.

I'm gonna put this here, I need to download this.

And like, I can figure those things out.

So when I sit down to create, it's really just moving through the motions.

'cause I've already mentally gone through it all.

But it's a discipline just like any other muscle where you have to make sure that you take the time to practice it, which I hate practice, but I end up in a world where I have to practice all the time.

But it's creative practice.

And so it can be that, you know, I do a stupid little video or figure out how to make a gif or learn how to use illustrator or something.

And it's still practicing the art form, but in a way where I'm learning something else.

But that has to happen for me at least, almost every day where there's an hour where I have to create something that is not for a client or someone else because that's the muscle, that's the working out, that's the lifting for me.

- You shared that analogy about, well, early in life, young athletes practice, training, developing that muscle and practice and you've carried that through.

- I think every, I think it is and you know, people talk about arts and sports and the back and forth.

I think they really are the same, where you have to practice it to keep it fresh.

Because if I take a break, it's hard to open up final cut again and sit down and look and remember, alright, I have to do it.

Like I have to practice it so that it's just autonomous.

- So Emily wanted to ask you about, well you have a role at Bucknell University as an educator - Yep.

- And involved in entrepreneurship and innovation initiatives.

How does that come together and what do you take from your life as an artist to your life as an educator and inspire serving as an inspiration for entrepreneurs and innovators at Bucknell?

- Yeah, it's definitely been a little bit of a journey because I think as an educator, at first when I came to Bucknell, I didn't think of myself as an entrepreneur.

You know, I thought of myself, I had had my career and I still have a career, but it was really about how can I bring this next generation up?

And so thinking as maybe an entrepreneur within what I was teaching them and what they needed for the next generation.

But at the same time, but now I'm one of the faculty fellows for our new Perricelli-Gegnas Entrepreneurship and Innovation Center at Bucknell, which is really exciting.

I find, what I'm struggling with a little bit is I'm really good at arts entrepreneurship as a creative entrepreneur, but now I have humanities, I have social science sciences faculty that I need to be able to connect with.

And so I think we could all say entrepreneurship is similar, but again, when you haven't felt as an entrepreneur, like a lot of these faculty have, you really have to think about how you can talk to them about it.

And I actually love the idea that we are called creative entrepreneurs in this show.

I wanna say thank you instead of arts entrepreneurs, because I think we need to really think of it as a creative entrepreneur versus just arts entrepreneurs.

- No, I was gonna say, just from, from my position, understanding what your guys' roles are being in media or in a college, I'm happy to say that mine is very simple.

(group laughing) The fever that I mentioned earlier is an actual fever for me.

And I know that it's just, when I wake up, I tend to just sit down and paint.

Or if it's summer, I tend to just get up and go out to the wall that I'm working out.

If I am not working or hanging out with my family, it's something that takes over me.

And I usually end up having to separate myself from the rest of everything that's going around, just because the manic nature of just like, they're gonna love it.

They're gonna love it.

Soon as I get done, you know, three weeks later they're gonna love it.

But the entire three weeks, I'm just a ghost to everyone.

- Can I say something about that?

Because I think it's so interesting, like you were saying, I have to sit down and do it, and of course I have to practice, but my art can't be in a vacuum.

You know I'm not saying your guy's art is in a vacuum so much, but at the same time you can do it solo.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Right?

and so there's almost, I can't do my art solo.

And so for inspiration, I always have to talk to people.

I'm always collaborating with people and really hearing how I'm gonna curate a program.

It took me a long time to think I was creative versus an interpreter.

You know, 'cause I'm interpreting other people's work.

But now I do think of myself as creative when it comes to curation and things like that.

But I just, I think there's a real difference and it's so interesting.

- And I think it's funny too 'cause I think it's in different ways because especially working in media, like the creation and capturing process is totally creative.

It's collaborative.

It's like I'm on set or I'm working with other people wherever across the world we're doing a remote or whatever.

So I'm always in that space where there are always people that I'm collaborating with, but then to make the product, after I've collected everything, it is usually me sitting at home by myself with one lamp on editing in front of computer.

You know?

And so it's that weird thing.

And I always tell my students, I'm like, depending, 'cause I teach as well what role you want to do in production.

If you are that person that's very sociable, that wants to be around people, like you need to be a producer, you need to be a director.

But if you're an introvert, like editing is what you wanna do because people are gonna bring you all of these ideas and stories and thoughts and everything and lay them in front of you and go, all right, now make something.

And they tend to walk away and leave you alone.

Which if you don't like creating alone, you should not be an editor.

- That your choice.

- You know so I think that's the cool thing is that depending on what level of that it is in your creative endeavor, yes, you maybe work in video, but that doesn't mean that you have to have the camera.

You can find other elements in which you can do it.

And even in music and art, in opera, like you don't have to actually be the person on stage.

You can be the sound designer.

- Exactly.

- You know, behind the scene, making sure that the person who's giving this great performance can actually be heard in a way that everyone else is being moved with.

And so I think that's the cool thing in creativity is that even if you, what you do is solo work, it's still collaborative at the end of the day.

- Yes, yes.

It's a big part.

- You're both educators.

Pedro, you spoke of Picasso as a role model and inspiration.

How important is that role of teacher or advisor or mentor for a young person thinking of going into a creative field, thinking of becoming an artist?

- I know for me, my students, especially in this day and age, are not sure how they're gonna make a living doing it.

And so there's always that question.

And so when, one of the biggest things I say to them is that you don't have to do just one thing as we say it in my, in my consulting, there's only like, there's not just an A, a plan A.

And there's not even just the plan B.

It's figuring out how you're gonna take all of your passions and all of your values and put them together into a creative art.

But I find, and and I try to, I try to show that in what I do, which is not always exactly what everybody thinks an opera singer is.

Right?

So, but yeah.

That's what I would say is it's so important that you show your students what you're doing.

- From my experience, I would say that just having mentors around, even if it's not just one mentor, it's having multiple mentors.

Steve, like you, I get the opportunity to bump into a lot of business owners.

And just hearing the methods and strategies that they use from day to day to either keep them going or to keep their home life going, or to keep their, the whole professional game going.

It's so important because you realize, like you said, Emily, that it's not just about the singing.

It's not just about the, the artwork, the paint, not the camera.

It's the team.

It's the effort.

And so almost like streams of fish, you know, I tend to find myself just going into nooks and crannies where I'm realizing that there's more mentorship and and bundles of people that you wouldn't expect.

And to take that away and sort of be a student of just everything that's going on around you just allows you to always be happily inspired.

You know, even when it's hard.

Even when it's difficult and tedious, but you're still like, wow, there's, there's a bunch of things that not everyone's noticing and I am able to put it together.

And so that's sort of the fire that, that that keeps me like, wow, they have to see this.

You know, your guys' thing.

Bless you.

Because the whole, the whole team work aspect, I feel like I was always the child who was left out of the baseball team.

You get me, it was a nine, a nine man crew.

And then somehow I didn't make the team.

And so for me it was like- - Well, you can be on my team.

- Well thank you.

- I'd love to have you.

- Exactly.

- But many a times I would find myself with the baseball and bat and it was like, all right, well I need to find a new team or just play the game by myself.

And so I did it from that direction.

And I love what you guys do, but just from experience, I know that's what it's meant for me.

- Well, I think for me, the mentorship aspect, I never, until recently, I never understood mentorship at all.

Which is weird 'cause I'm on the board for Bigger Brothers, Big Sisters.

But like, I just never understood because I never thought of my life as having mentors.

But I realized that for me it was never the direct notion of, here, you should try this, or here you should do this.

I was always actively doing stuff.

And so for me it was people who gave me the space to create and there's the space to do something.

Hey, I need something done.

Would you be interested?

And just sort of letting me run with it.

And then if I failed, they'd be like, all right, well could you tweak this a little bit?

And it was never a notion of I was doing something that had this hard deadline or anything, but it was the space.

And for me, teaching, that's a lot of how I try to work with my students is like, you don't have to get all of this right today.

- Failure.

- You're going and I tell first project, you're gonna fail.

It's designed for you to fail.

I don't want you to pass on this first project because I need to give you feedback so we know where you can improve.

But it's the space to be able to do that.

I tell the students at the radio station for the next four years, you have a radio station free of charge and no one's going to say anything to you about it.

As long as you follow the rules, you will never get this opportunity again in your life to have a distribution point that you just get to run and do whatever with.

Use it now because once you graduate, you have to earn the spot to do it.

And so that's the thing of, I wanted to give you the space to create and realize, hey, you may not wanna do any of this and maybe it's engineering or something else that you go into, or you love this and this is what you're gonna double down on.

But I think you just need the space to figure it out.

And I don't think a lot of creatives have that in their life sometimes.

- That Emily, you keyed on in, on this failure as a way to learn.

- Exactly.

- Not every photo is great.

You don't hit the right note.

Oh no.

Okay.

Not every painting you're satisfied with.

Emily, talk a little bit more about that failure as a way to grow.

- Yeah.

I think, you know, I know for me it's only in the last couple of like probably the last 10 years I've allowed myself to fail and seen as a a plus.

I do know my students have a really hard time failing, but that is really the only way that they're gonna understand that the, the entrepreneurial process really.

And how they're gonna build it the next time to succeed.

At once heard an artist say, it's not failure, it's you either succeed or you learn.

Right?

So if you, even if you don't wanna use the word failure, that's a great way of thinking of it.

It's just a constant learning process that happens all the time.

- I can't explain how many times I've failed, not on purpose, but knowing that I'm shooting way too far and knowing that it realistically isn't gonna work.

Now once in a while you'll hit a grand slam, but sometimes - How about the baseball references?

- It turns out I'm a baseball player.

- Wait, wait, what's your team?

- Philadelphia.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm sorry.

- That's okay.

I'm Red Sox.

- But for me it was for all the, the awesome things that I could think of.

I'm only able to do so many of them at at in a specific time or timeframe.

And then when I do shoot for the stars, I somehow end up landing on the moon where it's like, okay, maybe I was a, the laughing stock of the scenario.

And maybe from afar everyone was like, that's crazy.

It's not gonna work.

But somehow I ended up on a different path in a different target place where it's even more beneficial that I did the act.

You know, and that is like an invisible thing that that's over us all the time.

- And it's funny you say that.

I remember when I went to grad school, I worked at radio to begin with a hated video.

And my application got switched with the person who was supposed to do the, the video the graduate assistantship.

I ended up with the video graduate assistantship and they ended up with the radio graduate assistantship.

And like, I didn't know, we didn't working together, I didn't realize this for like six months, I just sort of kept my mouth shut.

I was like, I gotta go to school for free.

I will figure it out.

So legitimately was in the lab learning the day before I taught it to my students.

So that I could figure it out.

But going that wrong path.

I do video now.

And like I never thought I was gonna have a career in video.

I thought it was gonna be radio.

And now I do both.

I can blend them together.

But it was one of those, I was like, well, the goal is to go to school.

- Well there has been an incredible sense of comradery of collaboration across the three of you as artists tonight.

Emily, one final note on why it's important to collaborate and support each other.

And a brief note on that.

- Oh 'cause that's what art is, right?

I mean it's so it's changed the world to go to the next step to make something big bigger than ourselves, which is really what art is all about.

We have to listen and we have to grow with each other and we have to be open.

So it's always about going to the next thing.

- Well, thank you Emily.

Thank you Pedro.

Dan, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

Your insights I hope are valuable to other creative entrepreneurs out there across Pennsylvania.

Thank you for joining us.

Visit WVIA.org/keystoneEditionBusiness to stream episodes or subscribe to the podcast.

And remember, you can also rewatch this episode on demand anytime on the WVIA app.

For Keystone Edition I'm Steve Stumbris.

Thanks for watching.

(hip hop music)