>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> HUMANS RIGHTS ARE BEING ACCUSED, SENTENCED AND VIOLATED AROUND THE WORLD.

>> ON INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY WE SPEAK TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE ROOM.

FIRST UP, FIONA HILL, THE FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIAL AND RUSSIA EXPERT ON HOW THE SECOND YEAR OF PUTIN'S WAR WILL TURN OUT.

THEN, PUTTING IRANIAN PROTEST INTOHISTORIC CONTEST WHO FOUGHT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS UNDER THE SHAW THEN.

>> THE COLLEGE CLASSROOM IS A REHEARSAL SPACE FOR DEMOCRACY.

>> THE CRISIS IN LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION.

MICHELLE MARTIN SPEAKS WITH THE BELOVED COLOMBIA UNIVERSITY AMERICAN STUDIES PROFESSOR ANDREW DELBANKO.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WITH WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK WHERE ON THIS INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY WE LOOK FOR LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS WHILE RIGHTS MAY BE UNDER FIRE IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAN AND IN THE UNITED STATES AND ACROSS THE WORLD, WOMEN ARE NOT GIVING UP THEIR FIGHT FOR EQUALITY PARTICULARLY IN UKRAINE WHERE RUSSIA'S WAR COULD ALSO DETERMINE THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY ITSELF.

VLADIMIR PUTIN AT THE KREMLIN TODAY HANDED OUT WAR MEDALS TO FEMALES HE CALLED HEROES WHILE PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY MARKED THE DAY BY CELEBRATING THE STRENGTH AND FREEDOM OF WOMEN.

>> Translator: I BELIEVE IT IS IMPORTANT TODAY TO THANK WOMEN WHO WORK, TEACH, STUDY, TREAT, FIGHT FOR UKRAINE TO THANK ALL WOMEN THAT GAVE THEIR LIVES FOR THE COUNTRY.

>> MEANWHILE, THE WAR GRINDS ON PARTICULARLY IN THE CITY OF BAKHMUT WHERE IT IS A BATTLE OF INCHES WITH NEITHER SIDE WILLING TO CONCEDE.

FIONA HILL SERVED AS DEPUTY ASSISTANT UNDER DONALD TRUMP.

NOW, AS RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE ENTERS THE SECOND YEAR, SHE'S URGING WORLD LEADERS TO PUSH RUSSIA TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

FIONA HILL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

DO I HAVE IT RIGHT?

HAVE I SUMMED UP INTERNATIONAL EMPHASIS AND EFFORT SHOULD BE RIGHT NOW AND IF SO, HOW DO YOU SEE PUSHING PUTIN TO ANY KIND OF NEGOTIATING TABLE?

>> LOOK, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASY PUSHING PUTIN TO THE POINT OF PUSHING UKRAINE AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS AN IMPORTANT ONE AND WE REALIZE IT'S NOT JUST VLADIMIR PUTIN'S WAR BUT REALLY HIS DECISION THAT REALLY COUNTS HERE.

PUTIN HAS TO BE BASICALLY CONVINCED THE WAR NOT GOING IN HIS FAVOR BUT NOT GOING THE WAY HE WANTS TO.

THE ONLY WAY THIS WAR WILL BE WON IS PUTIN GIVES UP ON THIS IDEA OF TRYING TO SUBROGATE UKRAINE WHICH IS WHY WE NEED A FULL ON DIPLOMATIC EFFORT, NOT JUST CONTINUED SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE ON THE BATTLE FIELD TO TRY TO TURN THE TIDE OF EVENTS.

>> LET'S BREAK THOSE TWO DOWN.

I'LL ASK IN A MOMENT ABOUT A CONCERTED DIPLOMATIC PUSH BUT I WANT TO PUT IT IN CONTEXT WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE BATTLE FIELD.

WE SAID BAKHMUT, THE NAME AND CITY THAT'S SORT OF BEEN IN THE BALANCE FOR SO MANY MONTHS LOOKS ON THE VERGE OF FALLING WE DON'T KNOW BUT HERE IS WHAT THE NATO SECRETARY GENERAL SAID ABOUT THIS MOMENT THERE.

>> WHAT WE SEE IS RUSSIA IS THROWING IN MORE TROOPS, MORE FORCES AND WHAT RUSSIA LOOKS IN EQUALITY THEY TRY TO MAKE UP IN QUANTITY.

THEY SUFFERED BIG LOSES BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE CANNOT RULE OUT THAT BAKHMUT MAY EVENTUALLY FALL IN THE COMING DAYS?

SO FIONA HILL, CLEARLY SH EVERYBODY IS PREPARING THAT PARTICULAR GROUNDWORK IN TERMS OF MESSAGING AT LEAST EVERYBODY ON THE NATO SIDE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL MEAN NOT JUST FOR THE BATTLE FIELD BUT ALSO FOR EVERYTHING AROUND UKRAINE'S ABILITY TO FIGHT THE WEST AND NATO'S ABILITY TO STAY UNITED, IS IT THAT BIG A STRATEGIC PRIZE EITHER WAY?

>> LOOK, VLADIMIR PUTIN WOULD LIKE US TO THINK IT IS AND SO THE HEAD OF THE VOGNER GROUP PUTTING THIS CANNON FALL TO TRY TO TURN THE TIDE IN BAKHMUT.

IF WE LOOK BACK A FEW WEEKS AGO, PUTIN WAS USING THE ANALOGY OF MARKING THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF WORLD WAR II SEEN AS DECISIVE IN BLEEDING NAZI GERMANY IN THE BATTLE GROUND OF WORLD WAR II AND THEN HAVING THAT AS THE DECISIVE BATTLE THAT SHIFTED THINGS IN THE SOVIET UNION AND WORLD WAR II ALLIES FAVOR.

THAT'S WHAT PUTIN WOULD LIKE US TO THINK IT IS.

BUT LOOK, I THINK THERE IS A MORE SOBER ASSESSMENT, A RATIONAL AND CORRECT ASSESSMENT OUTSIDE THAT ALTHOUGH BAKHMUT HAS INCREDIBLE SYMBOLISM GIVEN THIS GRINDING, WRENCHING FIGHT AND CASUALTIES ON THE OTHER SIDE, IT IS NOT NECESSARILY DECISIVE.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAVEFUL IN THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT THIS MOVING FORWARD, NOT TO GIVE IT ALL OF THIS SYMBOLISM AND IMPORTANCE VLADIMIR PUTIN WOULD LIKE TO GO WITH.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE WORLD WHAT -- WORLD WAR II BATTLES AND THE MISSION IN UKRAINE IS TO DENAZIFY AND ALL THE TERMS THAT OF COURSE, HAVE BEEN DEBUNKED.

DO YOU THINK THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT HISTORICALLY, IT'S MORE WORLD WAR I STYLE THAN WORLD WAR II STYLE AS THE FIGHTING RIGHT NOW.

>> IT'S A BIT OF A MIXTURE, BACK HOOTH AND PICTURES FROM THE TRENCHES IT LOOKS LIKE WORLD WAR I FOR ANYBODY THAT LOOKED AT THE IMAGES BUT BASICALLY AS YOU ACKNOWLEDGE, THE WORLD WAR II IMAGERY APPEARS THE MOST BECAUSE WORLD WAR I DID NOT TURN OUT WELL FOR THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

IT WAS IN FACT A COLOSSAL DISASTER AND LED TO THE COLLAPSE OF THE SYSTEM AND IT ALSO WAS A WAR IN WHICH RUSSIAN SOLDIERS BEING FACED BY THIS WARFARE ON THE FRONT DROPPED THEIR WEAPONS AND RETURNED HOME.

WORLD WAR I IMAGERY DOESN'T PLAY MUCH IN PUTIN'S FAVOR WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY THE REFERENCES HE'S MAKING ARE TO THIS GREAT VICTORIOUS WORLD WAR II WHICH IS ALSO THE DEFENSE OF THE MOTHER LAND AS WE'RE IN MARCH 8th AND INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SET OF BATTLES TO SAVE MOTHER RUSSIA ALTHOUGH WORLD WAR II IS KNOWN AS THE GREAT FATHER OF THE WAR.

>> RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, INTERESTING YOU MENTIONED THE DESERTERS.

IN THIS WAR WE HAD PLENTY OF EVIDENCE OF RUSSIANS THAT FLED THIS WAR AND COMPLAINED ON OPEN SOURCE TELEPHONES AND OTHER THINGS THAT ARE BEING RECORDED AND PUB UTILIZED ABOUT A LACK OF LEADERSHIP, A LACK OF WEAPONS, A LACK OF AMMUNITION.

YOU MENTIONED THE HEAD OF THE VAGNER GROUP PICKING FIGHTS WITH PUTIN AND THE GROUP AND WHERE DOES THAT LEAD?

>> THE TENSION AND THE FACT THIS ISN'T GOING ACCORDING TO ANYONE'S PLAN AND THIS IS A HARD FOUGHT GRINDING WAR WE'RE EXPERIENCING AT THIS MOMENT.

WE CAN SEE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY WITH ALL OF THE STORIES FROM THE BATTLE FIELD AND THAT'S WHY WE ALSO HAVE TO KEEP PUSHING AND PUTIN THINGS HE CAN PREVAIL AND PUSHING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE TO THE FRONT PIER THAT THE GENERAL SECRETARY SAID PREVAIL IN SHEER NUMBERS AND HOPING TO OVERWHELM UKRAINE AND EVERYBODY ELSE.

THE NATURE OF THIS CARNAGE, IT'S VERY HARD TO STOMACH AND WATCH AND PUTIN IS BASICALLY BETTING, HE'S HOPING IN THE NEAR TERM FUTURE THAT THE REST OF US WILL BE SO REPELLED AND REVOLTED BY THIS AND INCLUDING WORLD WAR I THAT IS EVIDENCED THAT WE'LL TRY TO PULL BACK AND PUSH FOR SOME KIND OF RESOLUTION THAT WE'LL FEED INTO HIS TERMS.

WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL HOW WE APPROACH THIS AND TALK ABOUT IT AND LOOK AT IT IN THE COMING MONTHS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE RAISED A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION BECAUSE WE KNOW -- I'M SITTING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND READING THAT POLL AFTER POLL IS SHOWING, YOU KNOW, GRADUAL DROPOFF OF POLITICAL SUPPORT AND DIVIDING LINES.

AS YOU SAY, PUTIN IS DOUBLING DOWN AT LEAST WITH PEOPLE AND HAS A LONG LINE OF COUNTER OFFENSIVES GOING ON IN THE EAST THERE AND SO THERE ARE PEOPLE AND COUNTRIES AND LEADERS MUCH CLOSER WHO ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID, PUTIN WILL WAIT AND GRIND EVERYBODY DOWN.

THE RECENTLY REELECTED PRIME MINISTER OF ESTONIA IS WORRIED THAT, YOU KNOW, THE WEST MIGHT JUST HOPE THAT THIS WHOLE THING GOES AWAY AND KIND OF ENDS ITSELF RATHER THAN HAVE TO KEEP, YOU KNOW, DOUBLING DOWN AND I SPOKE TO THE LITHUANIA FOREIGN MINISTER YESTERDAY AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

HE HAD AN EVEN MORE MAXIMUM VIEW HOW IT SHOULD END.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO ME.

>> IF SOMEBODY SUGGESTIONS WE SHOULD BE NEGOTIATING WITH PUTIN AND HOW DO WE RECONCILE THAT WITH THE IDEA OF SPECIAL?

YOU CANNOT HAVE WEALTH.

YOU CANNOT HAVE SOMEBODY THAT IS BUILDING FOR ACTIVE AGGRESSION FOR ORDERING GENERALS AND TROOPS COMMIT WAR CRIMES AND THAT'S SITTING AT THE SAME TABLE TO NEGOTIATE, YOU KNOW, SEIZE FIRE OR SEIZING OF TERRITORIES.

YOU HAVE TO DECIDE.

>> SO HE SAYS, FIONA HILL YOU HAVE TO DECIDE.

>> YOU HAVE TO TAKE THIS IN SLICES AND THINK ABOUT THIS AS A PROCESS.

THERE IS ONE THING ABOUT THE WAR ITSELF AND PEOPLE BASICALLY FINDING IT'S JUST TOO MUCH TO DEAL WITH BUT ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT THE OUTCOME.

IF WE KIND OF THINK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN OTHER CONFLICTS, WORLD WAR I, WORLD WAR II, MANY OF THE CONFLICTS AROUND THE WORLD, ANYTHING THAT WE CAN KIND OF THINK OF HERE, THINGS HAVE RARELY BEEN OVER AT ONCE AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

THE WHOLE PROCESS OF NEGOTIATIONS IS TRYING TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING ON WITH THE BATTLE FIELD TO FIND SOMEWAY OF SEIZING HOSTILITIES, SEIZE FIRE BUT NOT THINKING OF THIS AS PERMANENT BUT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN OVER LONGER PERIOD OF TIME.

PUTIN WILL EVENTUALLY LEAVE THE SCENE.

THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE OR OTHER PLAYERS IN THE RUSSIAN SYSTEM.

WE HAVE TO KEEP PUSHING FOR AN OUTCOME THAT WE WANT TO SEE AND WE WANT TO HAVE FOR UKRAINE WHICH IS THE EVENTUAL ABILITY OF UKRAINE TO TURN THAT TIDE AND TO REGAIN ITS TERRITORY.

I'M ACTUALLY SITTING TALKING TO YOU FROM BERLIN.

IF WE LOOK BACK TO THE PERIOD OF 1950s AND 1960s OF THE CRISIS IN BERLIN AND THE BUILDING OF THE BERLIN WALL, ONE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT A DIVIDED LOST TERRITORY AND PERPETUITY AND A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN 1989.

WE GOT TO START TO THINK HOW TO CREATE THE CIRCUMSTANCES FOR A DRAMATIC CHANGE.

NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES.

IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT THING FROM THINKING JUST ABOUT WHETHER ONE CAN PREVAIL IN THE INTERMEDIATE TIME ON TIME FRAME ON THE BATTLE FIELD.

BOTH OF THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT.

>> I MEAN, LOOK, YOU KNOW, YOU SET UP THIS NEXT QUESTION THEN.

I MEAN, GERMANY WAS DEFEATED, NAZI GERMANY WAS DEFEATED AND THAT'S HOW YOU COULD SEE DEVELOPMENTS GOING ON.

HE WANTS A BIG DISCUSSION AND DIVIDE UP THE WORLD AND THAT'S HIS VIEW OF NEGOTIATIONS WITHOUT BEING DEFEATED.

DOESN'T HE HAVE TO BE DEFEATED IF THIS ENDS IN ANY WAY THAT'S SATISFYING AND IMPORTANT TO THE WEST?

>> WE MIGHT NOT FIND THIS SATISFYING BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO END IN THE WAY YOU'RE DESCRIBING THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT WAYS FOR THIS TO COME OUT.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS KEEP OUR FOCUS ON WHAT WE WANT TO SEE HAPPEN HERE.

THE BATTLE FIELD, THIS IS STILL IMPORTANT AS YOU RIGHTLY MENTIONED IN WORLD WAR II AND WORLD I GERMANY WAS DEFEATED IN ONE BATTLE II.

THERE WERE CONSTRAINTS AND DIFFICULTIES IMPOSED UPON GERMANY AND OTHER CONFLICTS, AS WELL AND MANY DIFFERENT INTERNATIONAL FACTORS THAT BROUGHT THEM TO AN END SO WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT AND THIS ISN'T JUST SITTING DOWN AND NEGOTIATING WITH PUTIN BUT THINKING HOW TO STRUCTURE A SERIES OF NEGOTIATIONS AND DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS IS THE BEST WAY TO LOOK AT IT TO BRING OTHER CONSTRAINTS SO RUSSIA AND PUTIN CANNOT CONTINUE TO PURSUE THE WAR IN WHICH THEY ARE.

WE HAVE TO KEEP SUPPORTING UKRAINE AND LOOK FOR MULTIPLE DIFFERENT PATHWAYS TO GET TO A PLACE WE WANT TO SEE AND IF WE LOOK OVER EVENTS FOR MANY DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS THAT WE COULD ENVISION.

>> ANOTHER COUNTRY THEN WOULD BE LET'S SAY CHINA HAS BEEN MOOTED MANY TIMES AS TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND ABIDE BY THE U.N. AND BRING RUSSIA IN.

DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT'S DOING THAT AT THIS MOMENT AND HERE IS WHAT THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN HAS SAID ABOUT CHINA'S CURRENT TREND TOWARDS RUSSIA AND OBVIOUSLY, CONFRONTATION WITH THE UNITED STATES.

HERE IS WHAT ROB EMANUEL SAID.

>> CHINA HAS TO REALIZE IF YOU WANT TO BE A REFLECTED, WHICH IS WHAT THEY WANT LEADER OF THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY RESPECT THE PEOPLE YOU'RE INTERLOCKING WITH.

YOU CANNOT CONSTANTLY HAVE ONE HAMMER.

THAT IS THEY HAVE HAD A CONFRONTATION OR LOOK CONFRONTATION WITH MULTIPLE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION CONSISTENTLY.

>> SO FIONA HILL, WHAT DO YOU THINK BEIJING'S GOAL IS AND CAN IT BE A USEFUL ALLY TO BROKER AN END TO THIS?

>> LOOK, I'M NOT SURE IT WILL BE AN ALLY BUT CERTAINLY COULD HAVE A RELATIVE PLAYER AND I THINK IT'S ALSO DEPENDING HOW OTHER COUNTRIES INTERACT WITH CHINA.

IT'S NOT JUST ALWAYS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM WHERE WE LOOK AT THIS, AMERICAN LEADERSHIP IS IMPORTANT BUT A LOT OF PLAYERS ON THIS MIX HERE AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMACY, INTERNATIONAL AND CREATE A COALITION AND THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN ACTIVE AND THAT'S THE ARENA TO PUSH ON CHINA AND WORK WITH CHINA TO BASICALLY MOVE THIS SITUATION ALONG.

IF WE HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE MIX HERE AND OTHER PRESSURES PUT TO BEAR, WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO.

IT WILL BE HARD WORK AND VERY DIFFICULT BUT THAT'S WHAT DIPLOMACY IS ABOUT.

IT'S NOT A SITUATION OF SITTING DOWN AND NEGOTIATING WITH PUTIN AND THE WAY THIS IS DISBARRED.

WE PUSHED IT NOT AWAY WITH THE QUESTIONS BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE IN MIND HERE.

IT'S A MUCH LARGER DIPLOMATIC EFFORT TO GET US TO A DIFFERENT PLACE BECAUSE IT'S NOT NECESSARILY ALL GOING TO BE RESOLVED ON THE BATTLE FIELD BUT A DEFEAT FOR RUSSIA IN BAKHMUT OR SOMEWHERE ELSE COULD BE A TURNING POINT AS WE'VE SEEN IN OTHER CONFLICTS WHERE WE HAVE TO START WORKING ON DIPLOMATIC STRUCTURES THAT WOULD MOVE US FORWARD IN PARALLEL WITH THAT.

>> SO WHO DO YOU SEE?

POWERS, WHAT NATIONS DO YOU SEE AS BEING ABLE TO YOU'RE DESCRIBING?

YOU SAID IT AND OTHERS.

THE WHOLE GLOBAL SOUTH IS NOT JUST ON THE WEST SIDE, NOT ON UKRAINE EASTSIDE AND NOT ON -- DOESN'T BUY INTO THE NARRATIVE THIS IS ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW, ABOUT THE U.N. CHARTER, ABOUT DEMOCRACY, ET CETERA, ABOUT FRANKLY NOT A BIG NUCLEAR POWER INVADING A SMALLER COUNTRY.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THE EFFORT ABOUT MORE COUNTRIES BEING OF BOARD?

>> LOOK, I THINK YOU LET IT OUT.

WE HAVE TO WORK ON THESE ISSUES AND TRYING TO COUNT ON THE MISCONCEPTIONS AND FRAMING BEING SHED BY PUTIN AND THE KREMLIN.

WE ALSO HAVE TO WORK WITH SOME OF THE OTHER BIG PLAYERS, OFTEN WE NEGLECT AND FORGET TO FACTOR THEM IN HAVING A MAJOR INFRANCE.

BRAZIL UNDER PRESIDENT LULA IS WANTING TO PLAY A LARGER ROLE INTERNATIONAL LLY AND OBVIOUSLY WE'VE SEEN RATHER TROUBLING RESPONSES FROM SOUTH AFRICA THAT RECENTLY TOOK PART IN NAVAL EXERCISES WITH RUSSIA AND CHINA AND WE NEED TO ENGAGE TO FIGURE OUT WHY THEY ARE TAKING THAT POSITION AND INDIA IS ANOTHER OBVIOUS ONE.

WE SEEN BIG PLAYERS IN THE G 20.

WE HAVE TO WORK CLOSELY WITH ALLIES LIKE TURKEY FOR EXAMPLE THAT CAN PLAY AN INDEPENDENT ROLE NOT JUST IN NATO.

WE SEEN GHANA AND NATO STEPPING UP W. HAVE TO BE CREATIVE ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVE TO E ARE MAIN ENGAGED AND REMAIN FOCUSED AND ALL OF THE ISSUES YOU OUTLINED AND OTHERS OUTLINED AS DIFFICULTIES, THOSE ARE ABSOLUTELY THERE.

WE BASICALLY HAVE TO TACKLE THOSE AND KEEP PRESSING FORWARD.

WE NEED TO HAVE THIS ACCOMPANIMENT WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE BATTLE FIELD BECAUSE WE CAN SEE THE BATTLE FIELD AT THE MOMENT IS GRINDING DOWN INTO THAT TRENCH WALL FOR THAT CATASTROPHE, THAT TRAGIC SENSELESS LOSE OF LIFE WE SAW IN WORLD WAR I.

>> FIONA HILL, THANK YOU.

>>> SUPPLYING DRONES AND OTHER MILITARY GOODS FOR THE WAR IN UKRAINE, WHICH IT STRENUOUSLY DENIES DESPITE THE EVIDENCE AT HOME SOME PROTESTS FOR WOMEN, LIFE, FREEDOM DO CONTINUE DESPITE A BRUTAL GOVERNMENT CRACKDOWN.

THESE ARE THE LATEST EXPRESSION FOR A FIGHT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS WITH A LONG AND DISTINGUISHED HISTORY.

A PROMINENT ACTIVIST AS THE COUNTRY'S FIRST MINISTER FOR WOMAN MEMBER'S AFFAIRS TO OVERSEE EQUALITY ON THINGS LIKE MARRIAGE, CUSTODY, DIVORCE AND OTHER LEGAL ISSUES.

THE LAWS WERE SWEPT AWAY IN THE IATOLA AND SHE'S WROTE A MEMOIR CALLED "THE OTHER SIDE OF SILENCE" AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU ON THIS INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY JUST TO REFLECT BEFORE WE GET INTO THE HISTORY OF WHAT YOU ACCOMPLISHED ON WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY IN IRAN AND THE WORLD COMPARED TO ALL THE PROGRESS YOU MADE DECADES AGO?

>> I THINK THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN IRAN IS AN AMAZING FREQUENCY AND AMAZING SET OF EVENTS.

IT IS ACTUALLY THE FIRST GLOBAL REVOLUTION THAT IS BEGUN AND CREATED BY WOMEN AND SHAPED BY WOMEN AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, NOT ONLY SHAPED BY WOMEN BUT INCLUDING MEN AS COLLABORATORS AND ALLIES AND I THINK THAT WE HOPE -- AS WE HOPE THAT THIS WILL LEAD TO A NEW KIND OF GOVERNMENT AND A NEW KIND OF EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS FOR WOMEN, WE HOPE THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN TERMS OF GLOBAL REACTION TO IT FROM THE GRASS ROOTS LEVEL ALL AROUND THE WORLD, ORDINARY PEOPLE AT EVERY LEVEL OF SOCIETY TO THE PARLIAMENT AND GOVERNMENT AND SO FORTH, WE HOPE THAT THIS WILL ALSO BE THAT SORT OF THE MATCH THAT LIT FIRE THAT IT WILL ALSO HELP CREATE UNITED GLOBAL WOMEN, WOMEN'S MOVEMENT AND IT SEEMS THAT WAY SO FAR AND NO WONDER BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE AS YOU MENTIONED ARE MANY GENERATIONS AHEAD OF WHAT THE REGIME WANTS AND TRIES TO PUT INTO ACTION AND WHAT THEY HAVE HAD IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT REVERSIBLE, THAT IS THEY HAVE HAD A WAKENING, THEY HAVE HAD MOBILIZATION.

THEY HAVE HAD AWARENESS OF WHAT THEY WANT AND THEY -- THAT CANNOT BE TAKEN BACK.

>> SO, LET'S GO BACK TO WHEN YOU STARTED.

I MEAN, LOOK, YOU WERE ACTUALLY, I BELIEVE, A PROFESSOR OF LITERATURE.

YOU STUDIED IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU WENT TO TEACH AT TEHRAN UNIVERSITY AND THAT LED YOU BEING NAMED THE HISTORY IRAN AND A POSITION OF A MINISTER OF WOMEN'S.

WHAT DID IT MEAN FOR YOU?

>> I WAS THE SECOND WOMAN IN THE WORLD TO HAVE THAT AND THE SECOND WOMAN IN IRAN IN THE CABINET BUT THE FIRST IN WOMEN'S AFFAIRS AND WHAT IT MEANT REALLY POTENTIALLY, NOBODY KNEW BECAUSE IT WAS A COMPLETELY NEW THING THAT FRANCE BEGAN AND MINE WAS THE SECOND BY WE TRIED TO IMPLEMENT WHATEVER WE HAD DREAMED OF AND ORGANIZED AND LEARNED FROM PEOPLE THEMSELVES TO PUT INTO ACTION AND SO WE SUGGESTED THINGS AND WHAT WE SUGGESTED CONNECTED INTO IDENTITY AND CULTURAL PROGRESS AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, EDUCATION, BETTER DEMOCRATIC INTERACTION BETWEEN OURSELVES AND FORWARD, NOBODY REALLY OBJECTED IN THE CABINET.

ALL YOU HAD TO DO IS CONNECT TO THE PLANS, DEVELOPMENT PLANS AND THE IDEAS THAT THE CABINET OFFICE WAS AND MOST PART OF THE 60,000 STUDENTS CEMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT OUTSIDE TO PICK UP THE SKILLS THEY NEEDED TO REACH THE DEVELOPMENT GOALS OF THE COUNTRY.

THEY WERE NOT FEMINIST.

THE WORD DIDN'T EXIST BUT THEY WERE NOT OPPOSED TO THINGS THAT WE CONNECTED TO THE PROGRESS AND DEVELOPMENT.

SO WE WERE ABLE TO DO A LOT.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE ACHIEVED THEN INCLUDING THE FAMILY LAWS, CHANGE IN FAMILY LAWS, WHICH IN EVERY WAY BASICALLY ARE THE FOUNDATION OF THE STRUCTURES THAT ARE PRACTICED AND BELIEVED AND EVERY OTHER LEVEL IN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

IT STARTS IN THE FAMILY AND MOVES ON TO VARIOUS OTHER ORGANIZATIONS.

SO CHANGES IS FAMILY LAWS BUT BRINGING POSSIBILITIES FOR WOMEN TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SUPPORT WHEN THEY'RE WORKING FOR INSTANCE UP TO THREE YEARS OF A CHILD'S LIFE A WOMAN COULD WORK HALFTIME AND GET FULL-TIME BENEFITS.

THE CHILD CARE CENTER OF THE WORKPLACE AND PREGNANCY LEAVE UP TO SEVEN MONTHS.

THESE WERE THINGS THAT ALLOWED WOMEN TO WORK AND WOMEN HAD BEEN STARTING THIS PROCESS AT THE TURN OF THE CENTURY AROUND THE CONSTITUTIONAL REVOLUTION.

STARTING WITH EDUCATION AND MOVING ON TO SOCIAL INTERACTION AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.

SO SINCE 1963, THEY HAD GOTTEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE AND TO BE ELECTED TO PARLIAMENT AND OF COURSE, THAT IN ITSELF WAS WHERE THE FIRST REVOLUTION HAPPENED.

SO WOMEN BEING ALLOWED TO VOTE AND TO BE ELECTED BECAME THE CAUSE FOR THE FIRST ROMANIA UPRI UPRISING.

>> THAT OFTEN GOES UNNOTICED IN THE EARLY '60s, THESE RIGHTS WERE COMING TO IRANIANS, PARTICULARLY THE WOMEN, THEY FELT A DIRECT THREAT AND THERE WAS A BACKLASH AND YOU WRITE THAT THE BASIC UNITY OF SOCIETY AS THE FAMILY, RELIGIOUS FANATICS ARE MORE THAN ANYBODY AWARE IF YOU SHAKE UP THAT STRUCTURE, THE ARCHITECTURE OF HUMAN RELATIONS IN THE FAMILY, IT'S GOING TO SPREAD OUT THROUGH THE SOCIETY AND CHANGE EVERYTHING AND THAT OF COURSE, LED TO THIS BACKLASH NOT JUST IN THE '60s BUT WHEN HE CAME BACK AT THE HEAD OF THIS REVOLUTION.

WHAT WERE HIS FIRST ACTIONS THEN IN THE FIELD OF WOMEN'S AFFAIRS?

>> THE VERY FIRST ONE WAS TO NULLIFY THE FAMILY LAW AND THAT OF COURSE, IS THE STRUCTURE OF THE FAMILY.

AND THEN THE NEXT ONE WAS TO SEGREGATE WOMAN MEMBER AND TO MAKE THEM WEAR THE VAIL AND ALSO, AT THE BEGINNING, HE ALSO ORDERED SOME 40 MAJORS IN UNIVERSITIES TO BE BANNED FOR WOMEN AND THIS WAS SOMETHING LIKE TWO WEEKS TO POWER AND OF COURSE THIS WAS IN FEBRUARY WHEN HE CAME TO POWER AND ON MARCH 8th, WOMEN CAME OUT VERY MUCH AWARE OF THE MISTAKE THAT WE HAD MADE AS A COUNTRY, INTELLECTUALS THAT PUSHED TO A REVOLUTION AND MEN GRADUALLY ALSO DID BUT WOMEN WERE THE VERY FIRST TO REALIZE THAT.

>> WE HAVE THIS AMAZING PICTURE.

PLENTY OF THEM.

WE'LL PUT UP ONE DURING THE 60s WHEN WOMEN WERE IN THE STREETS WELCOMING THE VISIT THE STATE VISIT AND HERE YOU SEE THE WOMEN, I GUESS MORE EDUCATED, MORE MIDDLE CLASS BUT THEY'RE CERTAINLY NOT WEARING THE VAIL AND THERE WAS A HUGE ABILITY FOR WOMEN TO CHOOSE BACK THEN WHETHER THINK WANTED TO WEAR IT OR DIDN'T WANT TO WEAR IT AND I WONDER WHETHER IN ALL YOUR STUDIES YOU NOTICED OR KIND OF TRY TO ASSESS WHY AS SOMEBODY QUOTED AUTOCRATS FEAR WOMEN.

>> WELL, WOMEN ARE NOT ONLY 50% OF THE POPULATION BUT TRAINS THE OTHER 50% SO WE ARE OURSELVES VERY MUCH THE PEOPLE WHO SHAPE AND STRUCTURE HOW WE WORK IN THE FAMILY, WHICH IS THE FIRST UP ANYTIME AND THEN WE PASS IT ON TO SCHOOLS.

WE PASS IT ON TO BUSINESSES, TO OTHER POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS AND SO FORTH SO ONCE THE WOMEN GET AWARE AND REALIZE AND START TAKING RIGHTS, EVERYTHING ELSE MOVES AS WELL AND I'M HOPING THIS EXTRAORDINARY MOVEMENT BY OUR COLLEAGUES IN IRAN IS GOING TO SPREAD TO OTHERS AND AS FEMINIST SOMETIMES LIMITED TO PARTS OF OUR COMPLAINT TO BE ABLE TO BE MORE WHOLISTICALLY WORKING FOR THE 100% OF THE PARTICIPATION THAT WE DESERVE AND NEED AND SHOULD HAVE IN ORDER AND EFFECT, ACTUALLY, CHRISTIANE TO SAVE HUMANITY BECAUSE UNLESS WE TAKE OUR ROLE AND RESPONSIBILITY SERIOUSLY AND SNAP OUT OF JUST THE LIMITATION TO REPRODUCTIVE PART OF OUR FUNCTION, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO WHAT WE WANT FOR OUR CHILDREN FOR THE NEXT GENERATION FOR THE WHOLE WORLD, WHICH IS IN A DIRE STATE RIGHT NOW.

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT GENERATIONS AND YOU MENTIONED THIS WOMAN'S MOVEMENT, REALLY STARTED IN THE EARLY 1900s AROUND THE CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM YOU TALK ABOUT THERE.

I WANT TO PUT UP A PICTURE DURING THE '60s AGAIN OF A GROUP OF WOMEN INCLUDING YOUR MOTHER IN IRAN IN I BELIEVE NEAR THE ANCIENT SITE AND YOU CAN SEE THAT SHE IS DRESSED IN THIS VERY, VERY DISTINGUISHED LOOKING MODERN SUIT.

SHE'S THE ONE IN THE WHITE THERE AND IT WAS YOUR MOTHER WHO MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES TO GET EDUCATED AFTER SHE DIVORCED FROM YOUR FATHER.

WHAT DID SHE HAVE IN HER BACK IN, YOU KNOW, IN THE EARLY 1900s THAT CAUSED HER TO TAKE THIS HUGE AND DRAMATIC STANCE AND THEN BRING YOU ALONG TO THE U.S., AS WELL?

>> WELL, FOR ONE THING, SHE WAS ALSO A DAUGHTER OF A RADICAL WOMAN.

MY GRANDMA 100 YEARS AGO WAS THE FIRST WOMAN WHO WENT FROM THE CONSERVATIVE MUSLIM FAITH AND STARTED HER OWN ENTREPRENEUR WORK WITH, YOU KNOW, SEWING AND DRESS MAKING AND SHE'S THE ONE WHO TRAINED MY MOM AND MY MOTHER WAS ONE OF THE THREE WOMEN WHO FIRST WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY AND SHE ALWAYS WANTED TO BE INDEPENDENT AND IN CHARGE OF HER LIFE AND SHE PASS THAT ON TO US AND ONE BY ONE SHE BROUGHT THE THREE CHILDREN TO AMERICA AND WE HAD TO WORK OUR WAY THROUGH COLLEGE AND LEARN FROM THE NEW SITTING, THE NEW SETTING THAT WE FACED AND OF COURSE WHAT I LEARNED IN AMERICA WAS HELPFUL WHEN I WENT BACK TO WHAT CONNECTED IN IRAN.

THE FIRST THING I LEARNED WHEN I WENT TO IRAN, YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO PEOPLE TO SEE WHAT IT IS THEY WANT AND NEED AND TRY TO LEARN FROM THEM HOW TO SHAPE PROGRAMS AND THIS WAS FOR INSTANCE WHEN I HEARD IN A FACTORY WHERE WE KEPT TALKING ABOUT FAMILY LAW CHANGE AND THE WOMAN KEPT SAYING YES, THAT WHAT IS THE USE OF ME HAVING THE DIVORCE, THE RIGHT TO DIVORCE IF I CAN'T SUPPORT MYSELF AND MY CHILDREN.

I'LL HAVE TO GO TO MY FATHER'S.

THIS IDEA OF GOING FROM PRACTICE TO THEORY WHICH IS WHAT WE SOMETIMES DO IN THE WEST IS GOING FROM THEORY TO PRACTICE SO IT HELP AID LOT AND WE FOCUSED ON EDUCATION AND SKILLS BUILDING AND THIS IS WHAT HELPED US TO HAVE SOMETHING LIKE A MILLION PEOPLE COMING TO THE ORGANIZATION EVERY YEAR.

>> AMAZING, YEAH.

THIS IS A GREAT HISTORY LESSON AND NOT MANY PEOPLE REALIZE HOW LONG AGO THIS WOMEN'S MOVEMENT WAS STARTED IN IRAN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THAT INCREDIBLE STORY IS A HISTORY LESSON ITSELF AND THE IMPORTANCE IS WHERE WE TURN TO NEXT IN THE DECADE FOLLOWING 2008, IN THE UNITED STATES THE SHARE OF PEOPLE GRADUATING WITH BACHELOR'S DEGREES DROPPED BY A THIRD SO WHAT IS AT PLAY AND WHY DOES IT MATTER?

ANDREW IS PROFESSOR OF AMERICAN CITIES AND THE REZIP YENLT OF A NATIONAL HUMANITY MEDAL FROM PRESIDENT OBAMA.

HE TALKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF REVERSING THIS DECLINE IN LEARNING THE HUMANITIES.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> THE IMMEDIATE EMPHASIS FOR OUR CONVERSATION IS A RECENT NEW YORKER ARTICLE BY NATHAN TITLED THE END OF THE ENGLISH MAJOR.

HE STARTS WITH A STUDY OF ENGLISH BUT EXPANDS TO THE HUMANITIES IN GENERAL SAYING THAT THE STUDY OF ENGLISH AND HISTORY HAS FALLEN DRAMATICALLY AND SAYS THAT'S A PROBLEM.

WHAT'S YOUR TOP LINE REACTION TO THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THE ARTICLE IS A LITTLE TOO BLEAK THAT IS THE NUMBERS ARE SOBERING BUT IF YOU ONLY LOOK AT ENGLISH MAJORS, YOU MAY GET A DIFFERENT IMPRESSION OF STUDENTS MINORING ENGLISH AND STUDENTS TAKING COURSES IN ENGLISH BUT NOT NECESSARILY MAJORING, SO THERE IS ALSO A SIGNIFICANT OVERSIGHT IN THE ARTICLE HE DOESN'T REALLY SPEAK ABOUT THE VERY LARGE SECTOR OF HIGHER EDUCATION, WHICH IS THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHICH IS SOMETHING LIKE 40% OF UNDER GRADUATES ATTEND WHERE HUMANITIES AND LIBERAL ARTS ARE THRIVING.

THE FIRST THING I SAY IS TAKE THIS PICTURE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT BUT LOOK, HAVING SAID WHAT I SAID, IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT HUMANITY IS IN DECLINE AND STUDENT INTEREST IN HUMANITY IS FALLING RATHER THAN RISING.

ONE THINKS WHY MIGHT THAT BE?

I THINK THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE ANSWER.

ONE ANSWER I IMPOSE IS WE INSTINCTIVELY KNOW, READING, READING SOMETHING LONGER THAN A TWEET DOES NOT OCCUPY THE CENTRAL PLACE IN OUR CULTURE THAT IT ONCE DID.

IN MY TEACHING I'VE BEEN MOVING TOWARD ASKING STUDENTS TO READ SHORTER WORKS, SPEECHES, POEMS AND THE LIKE AND ANOTHER FACTOR SCIENCE OR STEM FIELDS, ENGINEERING OR MATHEMATICS, SCIENCE IS EXCITING.

SCIENCE IS THE FUTURE.

TECHNOLOGY IS THE BYPRODUCT OF SCIENCE PROMISES WILL MAKE HUMAN BEINGS IMPORT L. IT'S REASONABLE TO EXPECT YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE MORE INTERESTED IN THE FUTURE THAN THE PAST WHICH IS THE SUBJECT OF THE HUMANITY.

NOW, ANOTHER REASON AND THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF RUN IS THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN THE CULTURE.

WHEN I WAS AN UNDER GRADUATE IF SOMEONE IN THE DINING HALL HAD SAID MY AMBITION IS TO BECOME AN INVESTMENT BANKER, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A CONVERSATION STOPPER.

TODAY IT'S THE NORM.

A BROADER DEMOCRATIC STUDENTS, MANY STUDENTS THAT ARE FIRST GENERATION STUDENTS COME FROM FAMILIES WHERE DEBT IS A SERIOUS CHALLENGE.

IT'S PERFECTLY REASONABLE THAT STUDENTS ARE FOCUSED ON STUDYING, SOMETHING THEY THINK WILL LEAD TO A JOB AND A CAREER.

>> IT'S ALSO THE FACT THAT THE COST OF A COLLEGE EDUCATION HAS ESCALATED FAR BEYOND THE RATE OF INFLATION SO IT'S NOT AN IDOL CONCERN SO THERE IS THAT.

OKAY.

SO YOU'VE IDENTIFIED THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN TRENDING MOVING AWAY FROM PEOPLE AS THEIR MAIN FOCUS WHILE IN COLLEGE.

IS THIS A PROBLEM?

>> I'M COMMITTED TO THE PROPOSITION THAT YES, IT IS A PROBLEM.

IT'S A PROBLEM FOR YOUNG PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY AND IT'S A PROBLEM FOR SOCIETY AND ITS FUTURE.

YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE AN APPETITE, INDEED AN URGENT NEED I THINK FOR WHAT THE HUMANITIES HAVE TO OFFER.

YOUNG PEOPLE GRAPPLE WITH QUESTIONS EVERY DAY TO WHICH THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER.

THEY GRAPPLE WITH QUESTIONS IN THEIR OWN LIVES THAT ARE THE SUBJECT OF LITERATURE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOVE AND DESIRE?

.

A CENTRAL THEME IN MANY GREAT NOVELS OF EUROPE ANDA CENTRAL THEME IN MANY GREAT NOVELS OF EUROPE AND OUR OWN COUNTRY.

WHAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO MYSELF AS OPPOSED TO MY RESPONSIBILITY TO OTHERS AND HOW DO I FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE?

IS THE SHAPE OF A MEANINGFUL LIFE?

WHAT KIND OF LIFE DO I WANT TO LIVE?

MY SENSE IS THAT STUDENTS HAVE THOSE QUESTIONS ON THEIR MINDS AT LEAST AS MUCH AS EVER BEFORE, MAYBE EVEN MORE SO GIVEN ALL THE STRESSES THAT THEY'RE UNDER AND IN FACT, THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THERE ARE SOMEWAYS IN WHICH COLLEGES MEETING THAT NEED FOR EXAMPLE, YALE ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR COURSES IS THE COURSE ON HAPPINESS.

AT HARVARD FOR MANY YEARS, THERE IS A POPULAR COURSE ON THE THEME OF JUSTICE.

THESE ARE THE F FUNDAMENTAL CORE THEMES AND THIS STAMPEDE FROM ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS IF THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD IS ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN STEPPING UP AND MEETING THIS NEED AS WELL AS THEY COULD HAVE DONE.

THEY SEEM TO EXPECT THAT STUDENTS WILL BE INTERESTED IN LITERARILY HISTORY OR THE THEORY OF HOW TO READ AND IN SOMEWAYS ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS HAVE BEEN IN A WEIRDLY HOSTILE RELATIONSHIP TO LITERATURE WHERE THESE THEMES ARE TO BE FOUND AND EXPLORED.

SO WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS I THINK THE APPETITE FOR THE HUMANITIES IS STILL THERE.

THE NEED FOR THE HUMANITY, THE VALUE OF CONFRONTING THESE QUESTIONS WITH THE HELP OF RICH TEXT OF GOOD TEACHER AND YOUR CLASSMATES GRAPPLING WITH THE SAME QUESTION, THAT NEED IS UNABATED AND I DON'T THINK IT EVER WILL ABATE.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OUR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES CAN MEET THAT NEED AND THERE ARE WAYS FOR THEM TO DO SO.

>> THERE HAS BEEN A MOVEMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, DEAD WHITE GUYS HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH US AND I JUST WONDER IF THAT POINT OF VIEW, THE DEAD WHITE GUYS AS IT WERE HAVE TOO BIG OF A FOOTPRINT IN THE LITERATURE AND THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT THAT'S TAKEN HOLD IN A WAY THE PROFESSION IS SORT OF EATING ITSELF.

DOES THAT -- COULD THAT BE TRUE?

>> ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS SPENT A LOT OF UNPRODUCTIVE TIME ARGUING WHICH BOOKS BY WHICH AUTHORIZATION TEACH.

THERE ARE POWERFUL TEXTS BY DEAD WHITE GUYS AND LIVING WRITERS OF COLOR AND WOMEN AND NONE WESTERN AUTHORS, OLD BOOKS AND NEW BOOKS AND MEDIUM AGE BOOKS.

THERE ARE TOO MANY GOOD BOOKS RATHER THAN THE OPPOSITE.

SO YES, THIS SENSE THAT THE SUBJECT OF THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT IS A TRADITION WE SHOULD DISCARD AS OPPRESSIVE AND IRRELEVANT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I DON'T THINK IT'S THE CORE PROBLEM AND I THINK ACTUALLY, ENGLISH PROFESSORS ARE WAKING UP TO THIS PROBLEM AND ARE MOVING MORE IN THE DIRECTION I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT BUT IT IS A PROBLEM AND PERCEPTION BECOMES REALITY AS WE ALL KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT STUDENTS THINK.

>> AMONG YOUR MANY BOOKS IS A BOOK ABOUT COLLEGE.

WHAT IS COLLEGE FOR?

IT HAS BEEN AND COULD BE.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR BOOK IS THAT THESE KIND OF HAND RINGING ABOUT COLLEGE AND THE QUALITY OF TEACHING AND WHAT ARE WE TEACHING IS NOT NEW BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING, SOMETHING NEW HERE.

I MEAN IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER ENROLLING IN ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS IN THIS SITUATION IT'S FALLEN.

ESPECIALLY FOUR-YEAR UNIVERSITIES NATHAN WRITES IN HIS PIECE.

HE TALKS ABOUT HARVARD AND ARIZONA STATE.

SO DO YOU THINK THIS IS KIND OF A PARTICULARLY I DON'T KNOW IF I WANT TO SAY PRECARIOUS MOMENT BUT A PARTICULAR MOMENT WHERE SOMETHING REALLY SPECIFIC IS GOING ON HERE THAT WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO?

>> IT IS ABSOLUTELY.

IT A PARTICULAR MOMENT WHEN PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THE HUMANIIES NEED TO STEP UP AND THINK OF WAYS TO TEACH HUMANITIES AND WHETHER IT'S APPROPRIATE TO WORRY ABOUT HOW MANY ENGLISH MAJORS THERE ARE.

THAT'S NOT A PRODUCTIVE PATH TO GO DOWN.

I CAN'T MAKE A GOOD ARGUMENT IN MOST CASES FOR A YOUNG PERSON TO CHOOSE AN ENGLISH MAJOR IF THEY ASPIRE TO A LIFE AS A COLLEGE PROFESSOR, WHICH IS A RISKY BET BUT I CAN MAKE A VERY GOOD ARGUMENT THEY SHOULD READ BOOKS AND DEBATE AND DISCUSS THE THEMES OF THOSE BOOKS WITH THEIR PEERS IN A CLASSROOM WITH A SENSITIVE AND INTERESTING TEACHER AND I SEE EVIDENCE WHERE I WANT TO VA THE PROBLEM CAN BE TURN INTO AN OF TIMESTY.

WE SEE EVIDENCE THAT AT MANY INSTITUTIONS THAT DO NOT MAKE IT INTO THE ARTICLE, THE FACULTY HAS WOKEN UP TO THE REALITY IF THEY SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR THE STUDENTS TO COME TO THEM, THEY'RE GOING TO BE WAITING A LONG TIME WHAT THEY NEED TO DO IS GET UP AND GO TO WHERE THE STUDENTS ARE AND WHERE THE STUDENTS ARE IN MOST PLACES IS IN THE GENERAL EDUCATION PROGRAM.

WHICH IS THAT SORT OF INTERVAL OF ARRIVING AND STUDENTS ARE ASKED TO EXPLORE SUBJECTS THEY MAY NO BE FAMILIAR AND THE INSTITUTIONS THINKS IS IMPORTANT AS ADULTS AND CITIZENS.

PURDUE UNIVERSITY WHICH IS A STEM CENTRIC THE VAST MAJORITY ARRIVE THERE ALSO ASPIRING TO BECOME ENGINEERS.

THEY GOT A NEW DEAN THAT DISCOVERED FEWER THAN 10% OF THE STUDENTS THERE HAD EVER TAKEN A LITERATURE CLASS OR A HISTORY CLASS.

SAID THIS IS NOT OKAY.

IDENTIFIED A MAGNETIC HIS PROFESSOR THAT WENT TO THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT AND SAID SOMETHING LIKE HI, COLLEAGUES, YOU MAY NOTICE YOU DON'T HAVE STUDENTS.

YOUR CLASSES ARE EMPTYING OUT.

WHY DON'T YOU COME WITH ME TO THE GENERAL EDUCATION PROGRAM?

WE'RE GOING TO MEET THE NEW STUDENTS, THE 17-YEAR-OLDS COMING IN PLANNING TO BECOME ENGINEERS AND WE'LL HAVE A SMALL CLASS FOR THEM AND TEACH THEM WHAT WE CALL TRANSFORMATIVE TEXT, NOT GREAT BOOKS, NOT CLASSICS, BUT TRANSFORMATIVE TEXTS BUT WHICH THEY MEANT A TEXT THAT CHANGED THE WORLD AND RETAINS THE POWER TO TRANSFORM INDIVIDUAL LIVES.

THAT PROGRAM BEGAN FULL DISCLOSURE WITH A GRANT OF THE FOUNDATION I PRESIDE FIVE YEARS AGO WITH 60 STUDENTS.

TODAY THERE ARE 4,000 STUDENTS EACHIER AT PURDUE VOLUNTARILY ENROLLING IN THE CLASSES IN THE FIRST YEAR OR FLESH MAN YEAR IN WHICH THEY ARE LEADING SOME BOOKS BY DEAD WHITE MALES, READING "THE ODYSSEY" BY HOMER.

WHY DO THEY RESPOND?

EVERY STUDENT IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE VOYAGE THEY'RE ON IN THEIR LIVES.

LOTS OF STUDENTS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE USES AND ABUSES OF TECHNOLOGY.

CAN IT TAKE OVER FROM US?

1984 BECAUSE A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE DRIFTING TOWARD TOTALITY.

THESE BOOKS ARE POPULAR AND A FEW WILL BECOME HISTORY MAJORS.

NOT SO MANY.

THAT'S OKAY.

THEY'RE HAVING A HUMANITARIAN EXPERIENCE.

>> I WANT TO PUSH YOU WHY THIS MATTERS BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE LISTEN TO THIS CONVERSATION LIKE SORRY, THAT'S TOO BAD.

WE NEED PEOPLE TO WRITE CODE.

WE NEED PEOPLE TO DO YOUR BACK SURGERY WHEN YOU GET TO THAT POINT.

YOU KNOW, LOOK, YOU KNOW, LOVE Y'ALL BUT THAT'S GREAT BUT LITERATURE IS A HOBBY, NOT A JOB.

SO THIS SOCIETY REALLY NEEDS PEOPLE TO DO THESE OTHER THINGS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> A COULD THINGS.

IT'S NOT EITHER OR QUESTION.

ALL THE INTEREST DOCTORS I'VE EVER KNOWN HAVE A HUMAN INTEREST, HAVE HAD SOME LIBERAL EDUCATION BEFORE THEY BECAME MED AND SIGN TIFF IF I CAN SPECIALISTS AND I THINK THAT GOES FOR SCIENTIFIC AND PROCEEDED OUT OF A SENSE OF CURIOSITY AND ADVENTURE YOU GET FROM GETTING A LIBERAL HUMANITIES EDUCATION.

IT NOT EITHER OR.

MORE BROADLY, YES, WE NEED ALL THE SPECIALISTS.

WE NEED ALL THOSE COMPETENT PEOPLE.

WE NEED EXPERTS IN THIS AND THAT BUT WE ALSO NEED CITIZENS, RIGHT?

THOSE PEOPLE ARE ALL CITIZENS.

THEY HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH TOUGH QUESTIONS LIKE WHERE DO I FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE BETWEEN PERSONAL LIBERTIES AND THE PUBLIC INTEREST?

THE KIND OF QUESTION WE THINK ABOUT DURING THE COVID YEARS AND A NATION STATE IN THE WORLD WHERE MICROBES AND REFUGEES FROM VICIOUS REGIMES DON'T CARE ABOUT NATIONAL BORDERS.

RIGHT?

THOSE ARE HARD QUESTIONS.

THERE ARE NO RIGHT ANSWERS TO THOSE QUESTIONS AND IF WE HAVE A FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY WHERE POLITICIANS CAN CALL TO ACCOUNT TALKING NONSENSE, WE NEED AN EDUCATED CITIZEN.

DEMOCRACY DEPENDS ON THAT SO YEAH, WE NEED THE TECHNICAL TRAINING BUT WE NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE CAPABLE ABOUT THINKING OF COMPLEX PROBLEMS, LISTENING TO OTHER POINTS OF VIEW AND COMING TO A REASONABLE CONSENSUS ABOUT MOVING FORWARD.

THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL CASE FOR HUMANITIES AND WHATEVER IS GOING ON WITH ENROLLMENT AND ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS WE CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE THE HUMANITIES IN THE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

>> ARE WE RELYING TOO MUCH ON COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES?

DO YOU THINK THERE ARE PERHAPS OTHER PLACES IN SOCIETY THAT SHOULD STEP UP TO PROMOTE HUMANITIES, IDEAS, HISTORY, SO FORTH.

>> THERE SURELY WILL.

PEOPLE ARE JOINING READING GROUPS.

PEOPLE ARE PARTICIPATING IN PUBLIC EVENTS TO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES AND HEAR THOUGHTFUL PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THEM.

IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT STUDENTS GET INTRODUCED TO THESE OPPORTUNITIES IN HIGH SCHOOL BEFORE THEY GET TO COLLEGE BUT I WOULD SAY THERE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL ABOUT THOSE YEARS BETWEEN SAY 17 AND 20, ROUGHLY 21 WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE IN THE SPACE AROUND ADOLESCENTS AND ADULTS AND ACHIEVED A MEASURE OF FREEDOM BUT NOT FULL FREEDOM LIVING WITH FAMILIES.

THAT'S A VERY SPECIAL TIME OF LIFE.

THAT'S A TIME OF LIFE WHEN THE KINDS OF ISSUES WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HAVE A GREAT INTENSITY AND FEEL DANGEROUS AND EXCITING.

COLLEGES ARE REALLY GOOD PLACES TO PROMOTE THE HABITS OF MIND THAT I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AND WHILE OTHER PLACES COULD BE DOING IT, TOO, WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE CENTRALITY OF THE INSTITUTIONS.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT AS CITIZENS, AS A COUNTRY, THAT PEOPLE ARE ABSORBING THE TOOLS TO MAKE THESE KINDS OF DECISIONS TO FUNCTION AS CITIZENS IN A WAY.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE SHOULD WE WEAR MASKS OR NOT AND WHEN AND IF SO AND WHEN?

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS WHERE THERE IS NOT ALWAYS ONE RIGHT ANSWER.

IF YOU TAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU KNOW A FUNCTIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF HUMANITY OF ENGLISH AND SCIENCE AND HISTORY IS NECESSARY TO THAT PROJECT, ARE YOU WORRIED WE'RE NOT GETTING IT OR DOING IT?

>> I'M VERY WORRIED BUT OPTIMISTIC.

I THINK IN THE BOOK YOU KINDLY MENTIONED, I SAID SOMETHING LIKE THE COLLEGE CLASSROOM IS A REHEARSAL SPACE FOR DEMOCRACY.

THE COLLEGE CLOSE ROOM IS A PLACE WHERE WE CAN'T RETREAT INTO OUR IDEOLOGICAL CORNERS IF THE FUTURE DOESN'T LET US.

WE HAVE TO BE OPEN TO ALTERNATIVE POINTS OF VIEW.

WE WANT TO LEAVE THE ROOM NOT SURE THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWER BUT ACTUALLY HAVING DOUBTS ABOUT THE ANSWER WITH WHICH WE CAME INTO THE ROOM THAT WE WERE CERTAIN ABOUT.

THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE YOU LEARN TO BE A PARTICIPANT IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

SO I'M WORRIED THAT WE'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH OF IT, PEOPLE DON'T VALUE IT ENOUGH BUT I'M OPTIMISTIC IF WE RECOMMIT TO THE ASPECT OF WHAT COLLEGE IS ABOUT, WE CAN MAKE A SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION TO STRENGTHEN AND MAYBE SAVING OUR DEMOCRACY.

COLLEGE IS A POWERFUL INSTITUTION AND THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT, I THINK EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO GO TO COLLEGE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY DO IT IN AN AFFORDABLE WAY.

COLLEGE IS A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN FIGURE OUT HOW YOU WANT TO LIVE IN THIS MESS SAY COMPLICATED MADDENING DEMOCRATIC CULTURE THAT WE HAVE AND THAT WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MAINTAIN.

>> PROFESSOR, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.

>>> FINALLY ON THIS INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY WE END WITH THE RESILIENCE OF SET BACKS.

WE'VE SEEN MORE THAN A DOZEN STATES IN THE U.S. BAN NEARLY ALL ABORTIONS AFTER A SHOCKING RULING BY THE SUPREME COURT BUT WOMEN MADE THEIR VOICES HEARD LOUD AND CLEAR IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

EXACTING A POLITICAL PRICE FROM THOSE TRYING TO SUPPRESS THEIR BASIC FREEDOMS.

AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM, IN IRAN THE DEATH OF 22-YEAR-OLD WOMAN UNLEASHED A WAVE OF PROTESTS AND THE MOVEMENT WOMEN, LIFE, FREEDOM DESPITE A FIERCE RESPONSE FROM THE REGIME WOMEN ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES TO STAND UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS AND IN AFGHANISTAN, THE TALIBAN HAS TRIED TO ERASE WOMEN FROM THE PUBLIC SPHERE BANNING WOMEN'S EDUCATION AND HOPING THEIR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS WILL BE RESTORED AND THE TALIBAN BANNED WOMEN FROM WORKING IN NGOs.

SHORTLY AFTERWARDS, TWO ANONYMOUS WOMEN RELEASED THIS VIDEO.

A SONG OF EMPOWERMENT INSPIRED BY THEIR RESILIENCE THE AFGHAN NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MUSIC CREATED THIS PIECE WE WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH NOW.

GOOD BY FROM NEW YORK AND HAPPY INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY.

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