- [Announcer] Live from your public media studios, WVIA presents "Keystone Edition Reports," a news and public affairs program that goes beyond the headlines to address issues in northeastern and central Pennsylvania.

This is "Keystone Edition Reports."

And now moderator, Julie Sidoni.

(upbeat music) - We are taking a hike on this "Keystone Edition Reports."

There are people working to bring more hiking and biking trails to the area than ever before.

They say it's good for the environment, good for bringing people together, and good for being an economic driver.

(logo whooshing) Pennsylvania wants to be a destination for outdoor recreation.

Here in northeast and central Pennsylvania, local groups are working to develop hiking trails through their communities, which have brought in tourism dollars and helped to connect an entire region.

What do trails do for an area and are more people hiking than ever before?

We are hot on the trails of Pennsylvania on this "Keystone Edition Reports."

(cheerful music) This is one we've been excited about.

I am looking forward to introducing you to our panelists.

We have other panelists who will be joining us in just a bit.

But for this first conversation, I would love if you could tell us a little bit about who you are and why you're joining us tonight.

Starting with, you know Kat Bolus.

Kat?

- Hi.

I'm Kat.

I am a member of the WVIA news team.

- And why here on the hiking show?

I mean, you're kind of our resident expert, right?

- Yeah, I'm a resident if there's a story that involves going up a mountain or going down a river, I'm the girl to do it.

- We need to have one of those.

And sir, welcome to the panel.

- Thank you very much.

- Go ahead and introduce yourself.

- I'm Ed Amelka I'm from Duryea borough, and I am a trail enthusiast.

- Good to meet you.

Good to have you here.

- Thank you much.

- And you.

- And I'm Lynn Conrad.

I'm the Executive Director of the Rail Trail Council, and we are working on the DNH Rail Trail.

- Wonderful.

Can't wait to hear a little bit about that.

But first we're gonna take a look at a story that was reported by our own Kat Bolus.

(logo whooshing) - One of the best things about Pennsylvania, we have natural features, mountains and rivers, 83,000 miles of rivers, mountain ranges across the state.

And we've done a great job over the years of providing everything from state parks, 124 of them, to miles and miles of trails.

We have about 2,500 miles of rail trails.

We lead in the nation in thee number of named rail trails.

We have many footpaths, rugged footpaths, easy footpaths.

We have a lot of examples across Pennsylvania about what a trail through a community can do to the economy.

But just in the big picture, recreation in Pennsylvania is a $19 billion industry and supports 160,000 jobs.

- I'm Lynn Conrad.

I'm the Executive Director of the Rail Trail Council of northeastern Pennsylvania and we are here on the DNH rail bed, the Delaware and Hudson was built in 1870 and we were able to get a grant to purchase the railroad.

People are now more excited.

I know that realtors use it as a selling point.

You are either on the trail or you are close to the trail.

We did a survey last fall, which blew us away at the amount of people that were on the trail.

It was a beautiful fall day.

We interviewed 102 people, and of those 102 30%, we took zip codes, were from totally out of the area.

Not even Scranton Wilkes-Barre or Binghamton, but further than that.

And 19%, almost 20% stayed overnight to use the trail.

- It becomes a community asset first and foremost.

It's the place that you're going with your neighbor for a walk into town.

You're walking your dog, maybe you're even walking your kids to school along this trail.

And it's majority community use, getting out for outdoor recreation and the health and wellness benefits that come with being outside in the environment and exercising.

But then it also brings in some tourism.

So you have people that are looking for a long distance trail to ride, and they'll travel from other regions, other states, other countries to ride those trails.

- What we find is time outdoors in nature, whether it's more passive, like really just sitting in nature, reading a book in nature to walking and especially walking, is helpful in mental health, physical health, and frankly our economy as well.

(logo whooshing) - And I wanna start with that beautiful shot, Ed, of the wetlands there in Duryea.

I think that's where that was.

Could you tell us what we're looking at there?

All those different colors and what we're seeing.

- It was known as the swamp area, and there's a natural source that comes from the dams that sit above Duryea that flow into one side of it.

And a lot of what was in there came from past flooding where the Susquehanna River backs up into the Lackawanna and it overflows and covers that area up.

And it's been that way since I've been young.

So we're looking at 60 years easily.

And it has a great influx of fish that are in there, wildlife in abundance, and all sorts of different plants foliage.

When you walk through you notice a lot of different variations of everything.

- Interesting, I wanna get to what's going on in Duryea there in a moment, but Lynn, I was really struck by what you said there in the piece that so many people had come in.

When did you see that outdoor recreation could be an economic driver?

- I think it took us a while to realize that people are now using the trail in great numbers.

And our office is right next to a store.

It's an old fashioned general store, they sell food.

And it's hard for me not to look out my office window and see all the people that have parked their bikes in front and are going to the store for lunch, for drinks.

And when we did that survey, it really blew us away that there were so many people from out of the area and so many that stayed overnight.

So I think because we're a long distance trail, we're 38 miles, plus we connect to the Lackawanna River Heritage Trail, that's 70 miles.

- So that's a draw.

- So it's a draw.

People, there's local people out there, but surprising to us there're people from out of the area.

- [Julie] I don't wanna put you on the spot here, but you said you took zip codes.

Anything really surprise you?

- Like Maryland?

- That's pretty far away.

- [Lynn] Right, upstate New York.

Other than that, you know, just a good radius of this whole area.

- That's really interesting.

Kat, I know this is something that you have been, I mean, it's something you're personally interested in and then you've also been reporting on a lot, but when it was time to do this particular show, you jumped right on it.

What are some of the things that you learned in reporting through this?

- I think one of the things that's like, that's very interesting to me about kind of all the trail systems that we have, you know, the DNH, the DNL, the Heritage Trail, is that they are pathways that once fueled the industrial revolution and they kind of changed the economy of the region.

And now they're doing that again with, you know, biking and hiking and walking and, you know, like Lynn said, like going to the general store and kind of fueling the economy in a different way.

So it feels like economy similarly, but it's a different purpose.

Like these pathways are now used for a different purpose.

And that really struck me in the reporting for this story.

- When you stop, when you're hiking and you stop in a town, what is to be found there?

What in your opinion, makes a good little trail town?

- I love a place with a good sandwich.

- Of course.

- Yeah.

A cafe is great.

You know, a gear shop.

When we talked about this, like a lot of people who are hikers and campers and bikers, like they're gear heads.

They want new boots or, you know, new tents or even a new bike.

So a gear shop is always great too, but really a good sandwich at the end a long hike.

- Just to get a sandwich.

You know what, I feel that, I get it.

My family, like, I think a lot of families, started hiking a lot more during Covid.

Have you done any studies, Lynn?

Anecdotally, do you think people are out there more or do you know people are out there more?

Are you still seeing that bump?

- I think that's when it started was during Covid that we saw many more people on the trail.

You know, it was safe to be out there.

You didn't have to wear your mask when you're walking next to your friends.

It was a place for people to meet.

You don't go to a restaurant during Covid or you can get outside.

So I think that's when we started seeing more people.

And it does help that we've done some more improvements as well.

- [Julie] What kind of improvements?

- Well, surface improvements, you know, drainage improvements.

To kind of emphasize what Kat was saying, I love historical signs.

We have 18, so we wanna keep the railroad history, the industrial idea alive of what these towns used to be and what these towns can potentially be.

- And I know you're a former Duryea councilman, and I believe it was under in your tenure that that land was purchased.

What do you want to, what do you wanna do with that?

- Well, that land was purchased after I got off of council, okay.

But I had a vision talking with Owen in the past of trying to do something with that because growing up in that town, I rode those trails when they were railroad lines.

And I found out that it takes an awful lot of legalities to be able to come through with something like that.

And fortunately for the current council there are several people on there that were backers of getting something like this going and the ball kept rolling and at one point the property became available for sale and they negotiated and purchased that land there.

So I've had several meetings with the Owens group that they've had, and they've shown the objective of what it's gonna be there by running the trail through, but it's also gonna be a loop that runs the whole swamp trail and alongside the Lackawanna River that runs down.

So they have different ideas with the benches and with everything else and educational type of signs and different things that'll go up there.

And I'd have to say, going into the future, there's a good possibility that that trail will also be used along with a much larger recreational area that possibly might come to fruition.

- Well, not specific to Duryea, but since you have been through this and you're kind of following this, what kind of things are we not thinking of?

What does it take to create a trail?

When you say, I mean there's got to be a lot that goes into it.

What are the sort of things that most people wouldn't even think about?

- Well, I've been there a long time in this town and I knew of the rails coming through there.

A lot of the people that live within Duryea borough, or even I say surrounding areas are much younger.

They never knew that the rail lines ran through certain parts of their town.

Now we have active lines that still run yet, but they're not trail lines.

So it was informing the populace and different people through conversations and meetings that they became aware of what we had besides that was just a swamp road back there.

- [Julie] Swamp road.

- Swamp road, that's what it was called for the longest time and it was used by fishermen and hikers, but through the process that they're going through right now, and I've seen the diagrams in print, and that has the potential to be a beautiful, beautiful area for a lot of future residents in this whole area to use and enjoy.

- You brought up Owen, Owen Worozbyt is going to join us here in just a moment so we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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And we're back with a new guest.

You heard us talk about Owen and Owen is here with us in the studio.

If you could introduce yourself and tell us who you're representing here.

- Sure, my name is Owen Worozbyt and I am the Director of Operations with Lackawanna Heritage Valley, where I oversee and maintain the Lackawanna River Heritage Trail.

- So you obviously work in trails and outdoor recreation and you've been listening a little bit to our conversation.

What are your thoughts about this area becoming just an outdoor destination full of these trails that really have become kind of the spine of our area?

- We're definitely seeing more and more people throughout the years using the trail, whether it be for transportation, for recreation, or just to access the river, whether they were coming here to go fishing, they're going for a run a walk, doing a half marathon or a long marathon.

You're seeing more and more people moving to this area and wanting to embrace the outdoor recreation that we have here because the outdoors in northeast Pennsylvania are really not that far from everything else.

You can live in northeast Pennsylvania and go to any of the big cities in the northeast and it's really right there.

So with the trail system that we've been developing through the DNH Rail Trail, the Lackawanna River Heritage Trail,.

and the Delaware and Lehigh Trail, it's really creating the spine along eastern Pennsylvania that is getting more and more people access to recreation.

- What can a trail do for an area, not just the people who are walking, let's say you have no interest whatsoever in a hiking, biking, or walking trail.

What benefits could you still see being a member of that community or living nearby?

- Well, there's economic benefits that come along with it as well.

I know Lynn was talking earlier about Cable's Deli, but there's also other bakeries and coffee shops and restaurants that have located in the areas where they've located because they're closed to a trail.

We've got wineries opening up along the trail so that they can be a destination at the end of your walk or bike ride.

So from the community standpoint, you're seeing more and more people wanting to be in your neighborhoods, to be in your towns, and open up these businesses or support existing businesses that have been there forever that now people are discovering by using the trail.

- We were talking a little bit with Ed about what it would take to take an area of wetlands, for instance, or just an area anywhere and make it into some sort of destination.

And I know the two of you have worked together, so what kind of conversations have you had about, you know, possibly taking an area and turning it into some place people want to be?

- Well, certainly in Duryea we see a lot of opportunity with the destination that we're working with the borough to create.

Not only is it gonna be part of the trail system, but there's going to be several miles of trail in and around the wetland area that will be a destination for people to go to.

Whether it's for wildlife viewing, birdwatching fishing, walking, running, like it's also at the bottom of a other trail system up towards the top of Campbell's Ledge, which is in different phases of being acquired by the public.

So you have a lot of development going on in and around Duryea borough that is really going to be a draw for people to want to come to Duryea and hopefully we see some economic benefit out of that.

- [Julie] I've heard a lot about Campbell's Ledge.

What's so special about Campbell's Ledge?

- Well, Campbell's ledge is an old tale in that it's the highest point of view in that part of the valley there.

And the old talee had it that during the Indian War, somebody, one of the Campbells, whether he was an officer or something, him and his horse.

Over the edge or face the Indian's scalp and he went over the edge, supposedly.

- Wow.

- But realistically, if you hiked up to there, it is the most beautiful view that you can see down valley going down towards Wilkes-Barre, follow the river and you look up the other way, you can see the river going up towards Tunkhannock or just straight on across the other way going towards Dallas.

Spectacular view up there, it's wide open.

Wide open.

- It kind of makes me wonder what other mountain sides or wetlands areas that are in our 22 county, you know, coverage area that would qualify as something that people might wanna go see.

I mean, you kinda like smiled there.

When you drive around, do you look around and say, oh that could be a great trail.

- No, my kids especially, like they wanna hike every mountain and then just trying to reel 'em back in saying that, you know, there's no trail to the top of that one yet.

But yeah, no, it's definitely something that I always see when I'm driving around and like, oh, which mountain is that?

Now what can we do there?

How can we work with somebody to get something done?

- But interesting because I had this conversation with Kat and I would love your thoughts on this, that you seem to indicate there was a time when people didn't want trails in their town.

- Yeah, so, you know, a few people that I've interviewed, especially, you know, these trail organizations that popped up in the late '80s, early '90s, they would say, you know, we don't want a trail in our backyard.

But now it seems that the conversation has switched to, yes, we do want a trail in our backyard.

Like please develop it, you know, because of, you know, all the things we've been talking about here today.

- [Julie] What were some of the reasons people gave for not wanting that?

- You know, it was too close to a home.

They didn't really necessarily want people walking behind or around their house.

Liz from DNL, she used an example, they put up a fence along a property owner's property and the property owner later came back to the DNL and said, can we have a gate?

We wanna be able to get out and use the trail.

So I think, and Lynn and I had talked about this a lot too, you know, once the trail is there, people realize how much it can do for them personally and their community.

And I think that's kind of the power of them a little bit.

- Speak a little bit about what you said earlier, which I thought was really interesting about how this was an industrial area and this is where the trains were, this is how we got around, this was our transportation.

And we're kind of going back to that again.

It's almost like history repeating itself just a bit.

Do you think this is the future of where Pennsylvania could go?

- Yeah, and I definitely think the state feels that way.

There's a huge push at the state level to invest in outdoor recreation.

Governor Shapiro launched the Great American Getaway last May, actually from PNC Field in Moosic, he took this RV around the state, they stayed at state parks and forests and they were on the trails.

And so I think not only is northeastern Pennsylvania very interested in it, but I think there's, you know, we're lucky to have the backing of the state as well.

And yeah, I think in another life, Owen and I rode 30 miles down the Heritage Trail when I worked at the Scranton paper.

And I think the Dixon City section was probably just being developed at that point.

And we had talked about how I think there was like a breaker along there, and that's kind of in, that's interesting to me is that when you're riding along these trails, you're kind of riding past where coal breakers were, or I know Sweeney's Beach, there was a garbage incinerator there at one point and that's in Scranton, but you're riding through history a little bit while kind of like paving the way for the future.

- Oh, that's good.

- Oh, that is good.

- Ooh, that was real good.

So is that, I mean, I'm listening to everyone talk and I'm thinking about what I know of Duryea or, you know, it's not that I have seen these outdoor areas, but certainly people I know have fished back there or they've gone walking back there.

What would you love to see there?

- Back there?

- Back there in the wetlands.

- Well besides the trail going back through there and the loop going around, I'd like to see something similar to what Dixon City did.

We have a perfect area there to put in a basic kayak canoe launch into the Lackawanna River there, which would run about a mile or two and into the conflux of the Susquehanna River where you'd be able to kayak south down towards West Pittston, Pittston, and lower areas down there.

But it's wide open to be able to do different things of that nature back there.

And it's an area there where you could put up pavilions or have something for family activities in that nature and not put much maintenance into it because of the fact that it's close to the river and it's a low laying floodplain.

So you don't put nothing there that's gonna get costly and destroyed.

But there's a lot of opportunity there to develop that into a lot of different areas.

- Owen, what do you hear from the state?

I mean, I do see that the state is making moves to bring people here through tourism.

Do you have a thought on that or how northeastern central Pennsylvania can be part of that?

- From a statewide level, yes.

As you heard in the opening, our secretary was talking about how we have more miles of rails to trails in Pennsylvania than any other state.

There's definitely people moving here because of the lower cost of living.

You have more people recreating in Pennsylvania, coming and checking out some of these areas and then hopefully spending money here while they're recreating.

It's what's something that Governor Shapiro is hot on, trying to sell Pennsylvania as a destination for people to recreate and also relocate.

- And we need to say that we're talking mainly about Luzerne Lackawanna County here on this particular show, but there's all sorts of these efforts going on too in the western part, you know, in the Lewisburg trail systems there and more toward Williamsport.

So I wonder if there's gonna be a time when there's a street and then there's sort of like the the back channel, the back hiking.

I guess I'd have to look at a map to figure out whether that's possible, but it seems as though that's kind of what you do.

- Yeah, it definitely is.

And I got to sit on the trails advisory committee for the state for the past six years and I was able to help nominate the Trail of the Year this year, which is the Path of the Flood out in Johnstown, which is a trail that I want to go check out.

So I wanna go to Johnstown for no other reason than to go check out the Trail of the Year.

- And will you stay at a hotel while you're there?

- I will likely stay in a hotel.

- And is that the kind of thing that you would like to see?

I mean, I think that's what we're all getting at here is can we bring people here?

Can we bring more money to the area with this supposed free thing to do?

- I believe we can, and I think a major player in it is what has been going on in our neighboring town of Pittston.

Pittston is on the cutting edge of a awful lot going on down there.

They have, they have a small trail down there now that goes past the original Knox Mine disaster.

But they're developing the main street into offsites, putting an amphitheater I believe in there and extending their trail from Pittston coming up to Duryea.

And a big bonus is right down outside of our town in the Pittston junction is where Reding Northern has located.

They put up an old fashioned railroad stand down there and they run now on the weekends, trips to Jim Thorpe and back.

Now it's my understanding going into the future from what I've heard, that they're gonna be running trips from Jim Thorpe up to here with people on, including rocks for bicycles.

Just like when we go down there, if I want to go down to Jim Thorpe for the day, I could take my bike on the train and ride the trail down there on the gorge trail down there.

So it would be the same benefit in the end when this gets developed up here, that people would be able to take the day up here with their bikes, bike the Wyoming Valley area and back on the train and head back down to Jim Thorpe.

So it would bring a lot of business in, the same as Kat was saying here, coffee shops, - Yeah.

Sandwich shops.

- Convenience stores, sandwich shops, and I biked all these trails and any place I go, that's what I look for when I get off.

I have a little bite to eat or a hunger or something or another and make a mental note, I'm gonna stop there the next time.

- Well, Ed, we have to thank you, we're gonna thank Kat and Owen and also Lynn for coming on the show and helping us with your perspectives.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

And thank you for watching.

This and every episode of "Keystone Edition Reports" is available on demand.

You're never gonna miss an episode.

I'm Julie Sidoni and for all of us here at WVIA, we'll see you next time.

(cheerful music)