- [Announcer] Live from your public media studios, WVIA presents, "Keystone Edition Reports," a news and public affairs program that goes beyond the headlines to address issues in northeastern and central Pennsylvania.

This is "Keystone Edition Reports."

And now moderator, Julie Sidoni.

- Welcome to "Keystone Edition Reports."

I'm Julie Sidoni, the Director of Journalism at WVIA and tonight we're talking about the future of marijuana use in Pennsylvania.

(logo whooshing) Marijuana has been debated by Pennsylvania lawmakers for years.

First, in terms of medical usage, now recreationally.

Governor Josh Shapiro points out that five of Pennsylvania's neighboring states have legalized marijuana and it's time for the commonwealth to catch up.

Area universities are also getting on board, offering education on how to succeed in this growing industry.

Still, vocal opponents remain and there is much work to do on how the state would go about enforcing adult recreational marijuana use.

There are many pros and many cons and a lot of unanswered questions.

We try to clear the air on legalizing marijuana on this episode of "Keystone Edition Reports."

A big topic indeed.

Thank you for joining us as we work to talk about some of the issues here with marijuana.

Joining us are WVIA News multimedia journalist and Report for America Corps member, Isabela Weiss.

We have State Senator Rosemary Brown from the 40th district covering parts of Lackawanna, Monroe, and Wayne Counties.

Thank you for being here.

And Dr. Adam VanWert.

He's a professor of pharmacology and toxicology from Wilkes University.

Thank you very much, all three of you, for your time and for being here.

- Excited to be here.

- Before we discuss the recreational cannabis law that's proposed for Pennsylvania right now, Isabela Weiss spoke with experts from Wilkes University.

They're offering a bachelor of science degree in cannabis chemistry.

Check this out.

(logo whooshing) - [Isabela] After lawmakers passed the 2018 Farm Bill, CBD popped up everywhere in creams, gummies, and vapes.

That's because what you're buying isn't marijuana, it's hemp.

Marijuana and hemp come from the same plant, cannabis, but the plant's been genetically modified to not get you high.

As governor Josh Shapiro pushes to legalize adult cannabis use by July, scientists and lawmakers scrambled to figure out how widespread recreational use will affect people's health.

- Five of our neighboring states have legalized adult use cannabis.

I've talked to the CEOs of the companies right across the border in Jersey and Maryland and New York, who tell me that 60% of their customers in those shops are Pennsylvanians.

We're losing out on revenue.

- [Isabela] And at Wilkes University, scientists started a cannabis program five years ago.

Dr. Donald Mencer teaches cannabis chemistry at Wilkes and he's ambivalent about potential legalization, but hopes it would increase research access.

- You know, politicians are gonna do what they're going to do.

People are going to do what they're gonna do, whether they're buying a legal product or whether they're buying an illicit product from somebody in an alley.

The alcohol industry's regulated.

When you buy a bottle of vodka from the state store, you can be assured that it has the amount of alcohol in it that it says on the label.

- [Isabela] But Mencer worries about the safety of cannabis products bought at non-state regulated smoke shops.

- Nobody does testing of these products, right?

They're sold and there's really no regulatory body that is in charge of making sure that there's monitoring for the quantity of the molecules, whether it's CBD or THC, or contaminants that might be present in the products, like heavy metals or other things that would be detrimental to people's health.

- We don't really know what's in it, but especially if the illegally purchased stuff, marijuana, that's the wild west.

- [Isabela] And like alcohol, legal cannabis isn't completely safe.

Scientists worry long-term use can be dangerous to a person's health.

- I think if you were to look up cannabis dependency syndrome, you would find that people are beginning to talk about that a little bit more.

So we want to have scientists to help understand what's going on.

And people are using the product, they've used it for thousands of years.

It's grown on every continent in the world.

So it's not going to go away, legalized or not legalized.

- [Isabela] Governor Shapiro's 2025 budget aims to legalize adult recreational use by July, 2025 and start sales this January.

- We're losing out on an industry that over the first five years we'll bring in $1.3 billion in revenue to our commonwealth.

And so I ask you to come together and send to my desk a bill that legalizes adult use cannabis, expunges the records of people who have been convicted for nonviolent possession of small amounts of marijuana.

(audience applauds) - [Isabela] His proposed bill would need to reach his desk by December, and no bill has been introduced on either side of the Pennsylvania legislature.

The last bill, HB2500, failed in December of 2024.

(logo whooshing) - So I think we should start with what is happening in Harrisburg, if you don't mind, Senator, can you give us just an update about where that legislation stands right now?

- Sure, well, I think there's still a long way to go as far as getting recreational legalized.

And so that's the concern in Harrisburg when you look at a state budget that's due June 30th and having this not even on the docket and having the votes there to legalize recreational marijuana and counting those dollars in this year's budget and next year's budget.

So that's the concern.

I don't think the votes are there yet for this to happen on both chambers.

And so I think we're a little ways away this going forward.

- It seems unlikely to you at this point.

- [Rosemary] Yes, it does.

- So you heard the governor say $1.3 billion and Pennsylvanians are going elsewhere.

We've heard that argument.

What are some of the arguments that are sort of tripping this up a little bit right now?

If the money isn't gonna be what you're going for?

- Yeah, so you gotta be careful that money doesn't lead you just to every decision.

And I think the states that have legalized it, the first one to do it, I believe was Colorado.

And that governor at the time said, watch us and see what happens.

And we have seen what has happened in Colorado.

We have seen the issues as far as law enforcement, human services, addiction programs.

There's actually statistics that state that for every dollar that's made in revenue, there's $4 and 50 cents spent in other services that are needed to make up for the fact of what it's causing in society.

So I think that really is a strong concern.

And you'll see that in New Jersey and you'll see that in New York.

You'll see law enforcement issues with the ability with drugged driving, the inability to recognize if somebody's under the influence.

You will see the conversation about the youth mind.

And this is, you know, cannabis and THC that is not like in the '70s.

This is very strong, and I'm sure we'll talk about that further with other guests, but there's a lot of different conversation of the impacts on society and the $1.3 billion that is being proposed is not really a number that is fully accurate because it doesn't take into account some of the issues that we're gonna deal with once it is legalized - Having to spend after the fact.

- [Rosemary] Exactly.

- Okay, Well you kind of teed that up to Dr. VanWert then.

Is it true that THC, CBD, we're not talking about the same thing now that we were back in the '60s or '70s?

- Absolutely, I mean, sometimes you'll get 20 to 20% or higher in fact, and that would be the actual THC content on a weight basis.

So that's quite a bit.

So 20%, 30%, sometimes even more.

And, you know, also in some of the shops that you can go to, you can get almost 100% of the unregulated Delta 8 THC, which is a little less potent, but it works the same way, it binds to the same receptors in the brain and causes the same effects.

So that, it's a whole different ballgame.

I mean, Delta 8 THC was probably not even able to be acquired probably just 10 years ago or 20 years ago because the way they synthesize it, the mechanism for synthesizing it, probably wasn't well known at that point in time, but now it's abundant and it's not regulated.

- We talked about how, let's say 20, 20 some years ago, people learning pharmacy in college weren't learning a lot of this.

Of course I have no firsthand knowledge of that, but now it seems as though you're teaching toxicology, pharmacology and now you have to worry about a hemp plant.

I guess my point is, can you start from the very beginning and kind of tell us exactly what this is and exactly why Wilkes felt the need to bring it into their curriculum?

- I think the main focus for Wilkes, at least I know for me and a lot of my colleagues is, about getting to the truth.

And we wanted to know, I mean, actually I'm passionate about finding out what is actually in these products and, you know, the safety side of it.

So I've been testing, you know, we won't talk about where, but local businesses, vape shops, you know, testing their products to see if you know what's on the label is accurate.

And sometimes, well, in one instance we found 5% THC, which doesn't sound like a lot, but the legal limit is 0.3% federally, 0.3.

And we found 5%.

So it's the safety part of it.

And not only that, we found that much THC, but then other, what they call cannabinoids, or the major constituents that are all related to THC, we found many other ones in there that, you know, either weren't on the labels or there were no labels to begin with.

And that's the big part of it is training, you know, educating, not just pharmacy students, but we have the certificate program and a bachelor's degree program in chemistry that could be, you know, pharmacy students can get involved in that or people that are already out there in their careers that want to further their education and get a certificate, for example.

- Go ahead, Isabel, what were you gonna say?

- Yeah, Dr. VanWert, you said the other day, we were speaking over the phone, that with some of the products that you can purchase at smoke shops since, you know, that isn't properly labeled as you put it, that people, you know, might not be understanding what they're putting into their body and can cause them some negative health effects.

You talked about the chance of having an anxiety attack potentially because of this.

I - I don't think that's discussed enough, but one of the major side effects of too much of THC, whether it's the standard, what's called Delta 9, right, that's your standard THC that is in most products or used to be in most of the, you know, smoking products, but then this other THC, which is not regulated, which is almost identical chemically, that if you don't know how much you're getting, even if there's a label, you don't know if it's accurate.

I certainly don't wanna underestimate the importance of the effect on mental health.

You know, our society right now is having a major, I would say major issue with mental health and anxiety, social anxiety disorder.

And you might say, that's not physical, that's mental.

Everything that happens in your brain is physical when it comes down to it.

- But you're talking about causing anxiety with the substance that is often known as something to help calm anxiety, correct?

- Correct, correct.

So there are, you know, there are different strains, they would call them, of, you know, marijuana that have certain, what they call terpenes, or there are other chemicals in marijuana, and there are, you know, hundreds of them.

Chemically it's very different in appearance, which I won't get into, but some of those terpenes cause a heightened energy and maybe anxiety and some of them actually can cause sedation.

So if you knew exactly what you were getting, maybe you could choose one, if you did have an anxiety disorder, to maybe lower that if you knew what was in it.

And the reality is even these things called terpenes, which are in a lot of other things, they're in flowers and they're just a lot of the scents that we get, like orange oil and stuff like that.

There's a lot of it in cannabis as well.

But we don't, no matter what anyone says out there, I mean, this whole idea of an entourage effect where if you combine multiple terpenes with THC that you'll get a better feeling.

The problem is, we don't know almost any, very, very little to nothing about what receptors in the body these terpenes are binding to and how they interact with our physiology.

- What would be helpful to figure that out and, you know, understand better how our bodies are affected?

You know, regardless if it is legalized, but just making sure that people are safe.

- Well, certainly, I mean, what would help is certainly funding in that area of research.

Now anyone can study terpenes without, because most of them, if not all of them, are not regulated federal because they don't really create a high, they're not psychogenic.

So things, like I said, to be in lemon oil, but some of those would also be in THC, or not in THC, in cannabis and things like that.

And some of the things you find in black pepper, one of those, that smell is a terpene that's also in cannabis.

So anyone could study that, It's just they would need the funding to get the personnel and the equipment and the supplies.

- Senator, part of what you said early on was the enforcing, I think you actually said the word breathalyzer, which kind of got me thinking, is there a way to test for, is there a way for anyone to test how high you are, how much you have, the levels you have in your system?

- I believe something is being worked on on that type of mechanism, but at this point there's not a true accurate way to say you are, within a couple hours have, you know, taken a THC or if it's been in the body for a month or whatever it would be.

So the accuracy of that is very difficult for law enforcement to find out and to hold that to, you know, a docket there for a court case or something of that nature.

I think one of the largest pieces of the whole impact is also on the youth and on the fact of medical marijuana versus recreational.

So if you look at, I was a big fan of it becoming medical marijuana, I felt it was strong that if you had the ability for it to work for you, maybe one drug didn't work for you, but it would work for someone else, to have that option.

And I think we now have problems with our medical marijuana program as well.

There's three doctors in the state of Pennsylvania that are prescribing 11,000 prescriptions.

That's 30 a day if they work 365 days a year.

And we don't know what kind of specialty they are.

Is that a pediatric doctor prescribing to young patients that we still don't know the effects on this medicine to the brain, to the receptors, to everything else.

So that research is really important.

So within that medical program we have problems, let alone if we were to expand this and open this up to a full recreational.

And when you look at the impacts, again, enforcement is one of them.

The other piece is the pricing when you regulate is going to go up and people are still going to go to the illegal market.

So some of the estimates with the revenue are really not accurate because buyers will go to a less expensive source.

But I think the impacts are broad, the numbers are broad around the board, and I think the public has to realize on a federal level it is still a Schedule 1 drug controlled substance.

And that hasn't moved.

So we're still looking at creating a recreational product for something that's a controlled substance and a Schedule 1 at the federal level.

- So when you have students coming in, doctor, to Wilkes, who say, "I wanna study this."

What, I'm sure this is anecdotal, but what do they want to do with that information?

Do they want to then become growers, law enforcement, pharmacology, I shouldn't say pharmacologist, but a pharmacist who deals with this?

What are the careers that are coming out of this?

- Well, currently a lot of the students in the certificate program are pharm D students.

So they're working on their pharmacy degree.

So, you know, I don't know exactly because the really, they could do whatever they would like to do, but a lot of them might end up working in a dispensary, for example, or opening one up for medical marijuana.

But I haven't actually gotten down to that level of detail to see, you know, are they pursuing opening up their own business.

But we do have students that are not in the pharmacy program, again, that are taking the bachelor's degree in chemistry, cannabis chemistry, and then also the certificate program.

Some of those students are not pharmacy students and some of them end up working, they go right into the industry in cultivation, in the analytical side where they can quantify the cannabinoids to make sure their product is accurate and, you know, what's on the label is accurate, for example.

- Controversial at all?

Did anybody reach out?

Have other colleges and universities reached out to say, how are you doing this program?

It seems to be just something you hear about a little bit more in certain areas.

- It wasn't that controversial because we have a license to grow hemp with low THC, 0.3% or lower.

So everything in the program, everything that we grow, that we grow on site, we have a license for that, like I said, so we have the greenhouse where we're growing and we test, I test that actually personally on a regular basis to make sure that it stays below 0.3%.

So we certainly don't want to go against the federal, we can't, right?

Go against the federal regulations.

So we're doing it to learn more, you know, to teach the students, you know, how to perform an experiment, how to, you know, critically analyze the products and things like that and use the instrumentation.

But, you know, we're not promoting one product over another or anything.

We're just, it's the truth seeking.

That's what we do.

That's what I do and- - That's what scientists do.

- Yeah, what is in this product, you know, how can we be more accurate?

What are the effects of this on the brain?

What are the effects in a cell line or something like that.

I mean, it's hardcore, you know, and science a lot of it.

But, you know, our certificate program does have a whole component where we talk about the regulatory side of it, different faculty, and not only the regulatory side, but the therapeutic side of it.

What has actually been proven, where's the clinical evidence for use of THC?

- And, you know, you mentioned a little earlier, the number one cause for medical marijuana or the treatment, is for anxiety, and the second is for PTSD, which is a form of the anxiety.

So it's interesting, those are one and two for the uses of medical marijuana.

So as you go into the other side with the different facets of the psychosis that has been now being talked about because of the levels of the THC is something that the scientists are really helping with to understand whether it's medical or whether you're considering recreational, to really understand how this would impact each person very differently.

And so to be educated on that.

- What has changed in nine years in your opinion?

You said you were a fan of the medical marijuana program and it's been going on obviously almost a decade.

What has happened in that time that made you wonder?

- Well, I think the fact of the ability to what disease states it was used for has expanded out more and more.

And we gave that regulatory authority to be able to pick the disease states.

And I wanted that for when you see children with epilepsy and you see, you know, anxiety.

And again, if a drug doesn't work for someone else, it's great to have any options for people to get something that may work for them.

But what I have seen is some of these questions in regards to who's prescribing, how much are they prescribing, are they doing a normal prescription follow up like a doctor, or is it a year long that we prescribe to a child or an 18-year-old and we let it go for a year and we let it just continue?

Is it very easy?

Was it the step into recreational?

And so my background is a little bit in the pharmaceutical, not as scientific as yours.

- I read that, I actually read your bio.

- Not as scientific as yours, but I have an affinity to, you know, doing the research on things.

And for that reason, I really supported the medical.

And I think the ability now to say, do we want, or do we need another mind altering substance of this level in our world and in our society, whether or not other states have it surrounding or not.

And I get a mixed bag from my constituents.

I've done polls, it's a mixed bag.

But I've had people where I am in Monroe County and parts of Lackawanna that say, "I used to live in New York, I used to live in New Jersey, I supported it, don't do it, Rosemary, don't do it."

Because they saw the impacts and they saw how it changed their streets, their environment.

And so I think we need to be very cognizant of that basic everyday life and what we're doing when we say recreational mind altering substance, it's okay, that message, I can't legislate the world.

I always say that, but what legislation and policy does is it sets up an environment and what kind of environment do we wanna have in our world.

And that's up to the constituents.

But it is a mixed bag so far with me.

- If I may ask, I've heard a lot of arguments from some of the researchers I spoke to that, you know, they said, well, you know, we allow people to drink alcohol.

You can buy alcohol once you're 21 and that can be a mind altering substance.

We know, you know, how it could infect your liver and cause cirrhosis of the liver potentially with overuse.

So I've also then heard some arguments from other lawmakers, I spoke to Marty Flynn not too long ago, and he was talking about, well, you know, we allow adults to drink alcohol, might as well also allow adults to purchase marijuana if they so choose.

Where do you think should that line be drawn?

Because obviously you're talking about that and the question of, you know, at what point do we go too far?

What do you think is the difference then between alcohol, which you can get anywhere almost, and marijuana?

- Now listen, that argument comes up a lot.

- It does, yeah.

- It really does.

And I think that's just a way to say, nope.

You know, like it should, everything.

Everything should be good to go.

And we have a lot of problems with DUIs, we have a lot of problems with alcohol.

And I think, you know, when you look and you say, talk to the addiction specialist, we constantly, as a legislature and in our society are talking about opioid addictions, heroin addictions, all the drugs we have on the street, but on the other voice or outta the other side of the mouth, we're saying, let's do a mind altering, another substance, that is controversial again on whether or not it's a gateway into some of these other drugs.

And because it has this addictive quality, it can lead to further use of these other drugs, which we are having a true societal problem with.

And so I think it's really important to say, we're obviously having the alcohol, we're not getting rid of it, but what kind of additional, do you wanna keep adding?

And if you're trying to fight the drug addiction on this side, do you believe this is going to help that drug addiction or do you think it's gonna make it worse?

And that's a significant question, I think for people.

- I guess the question is, as we saw in the beginning, Dr. Donald Mencer at Wilkes University said that alcohol, you could be pretty confident in the concentration of ethanol or alcohol that you're getting, whether you're getting wine or whatever you prefer.

- [Rosemary] The label says what it is, right?

- Yeah, the label says what it is, but, you know, with something like recreational marijuana, I mean, if we can ensure, and that's regardless, I think you have a good point, but if we could ensure at least that the composition is accurate, that's a step in the right direction.

But we're not there.

We're not there at all, so.

- Absolutely, I think that's one of the benefits, if you were to legalize it, is to ensure that it is what it is.

It's not laced with fentanyl, it's not laced with anything.

But I think what you'll find is, there could be a group thing.

I bought it from a established state regulated store when maybe it wasn't and it was bought from an illegal market, you know, whether you're in a group setting or whatever it would be.

But I think that is one of the benefits of doing it.

I would probably say for me that's probably the main benefit.

- So I think of it as like moonshine right now, right?

Recreational marijuana is like the moonshine when you get toxic alcohol, such as methanol that can cause blindness and not that marijuana is causing that.

But if we don't know what's in there, if a consumer and, you know, especially a child, literally can go to one of these vape shops and not know what they're buying.

And even if they did, they may not know the consequences of that.

- Here's what we're gonna do.

We're gonna bring you all back in a couple of months after we have debated this.

We'll see where are, yeah, we've covered a lot on this show.

But this in every episode of "Keystone Edition Reports" is available on demand on the YouTube channel.

That is gonna do it for us.

For all of us here at WVIA, enjoy your evening.

We'll see you next time.

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