>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE HOUSE RULES OF A FEW COUNTRIES SHOULD NOT BE IMPOSED UPON OTHERS.

>> CHINA SHORES UP ALLIANCES AT THE SHANGHAI SUMMIT.

I ASK LONG TIME DIPLOMAT RICHARD HAAS ABOUT THIS ALTERNATIVE WORLD ORDER THAT LOOKS TO LEAVE THE UNITED STATES BEHIND.

THEN -- > >> UNBELIEVABLY CIVILIANS ARE FACING YET ANOTHER DEADLY ESCALATION.

>> ISRAEL CALLS UP 60,000 ARMY RESERVISTS TO HELP ITS PLANNED TAKEOVER OF GAZA CITY, DESPITE WIDESPREAD OPPOSITION.

WE HAVE THE DETAILS.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> DONALD TRUMP IS MORE THE CONSEQUENCE OR THE CULMINATION OF A LOT OF FAILURES OVER THE LAST 40 OR 50 YEARS TO DEAL WITH WIDENING INEQUALITY.

>> "COMING UP SHORT," A MEMOIR OF AMERICA FROM THE BABY BOOMERS TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

FORMER LABOR SECRETARY ROBERT REICH TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HOW THE AMERICAN ECONOMY GOT TO WHERE IT IS TODAY.

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> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

ON THIS DAY 80 YEARS AGO THE WAR CAME TO AN END.

WITNESSING THE FORMER JAPANESE SURRENDER ABOARD THE USS MISSOURI IN TOKYO BAY.

BUT FAST FORWARD TODAY.

IS THE POST-1945 WORLD ORDER CRUMBLING?

CERTAINLY THE DISPLAY OF ALLIANCES IN CHINA THIS WEEKEND SEEM TO SUGGEST SHOW.

FIRST AT THE SHANGHAI COOPERATION SUMMIT AND TODAY CHINA'S HOSTING TWO OF AMERICA'S BIGGEST ADVERSARIES, NORTH KOREA AND RUSSIA.

THE TWO STRIKING A DEAL TO BUILD A NATURAL GAS PIPELINE AND NO MENTION OF THE KREMLIN'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

IT'S NOT JUST ADVARSARIES.

U. S. ALLIES LIKE TURK YAE AFS ERDOGAN AND PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI ARE ALSO VISITING AS THEY GRAPPLE WITH A NEW ISOLATIONISTS AND TRANSACTIONAL AMERICA.

OUR CORRESPONDENT BREAKS DOWN EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AT THIS SUMMIT.

>> A SHOW OF INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY AT A TIME OF GLOBAL UNCERTAINTY.

LEADERS OF THREE OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST COUNTRIES HAPPILY RUBBING SHOULDERS AT A SUMMIT OF THE SHANGHAI COOPERATION ORGANIZATION IN SHANG JNG, CHINA.

THE LEADERS OF U. S. AND CHINA HAVE LONG COMKLAINED THE U. S. AND WESTERN ALLIES HAVE DOMINATED OPERATIONS.

NOW THEY'VE GATHERED HEADS OF STATE FROM ASIA AND THE MIDDLE EAST INTO THIS VAST BUILDING TO CALL FOR THE CREATION OF A NEW WORLD ORDER.

THE HOST, CHINESE PRESIDENT XI JINPING, DENOUNCING BULLYING AND DOUBLE STANDARDS AND PROMOTING CHINA AS A CHAMPION FOR DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.

>> Translator: THE HOUSE RULES OF A FEW COUNTRIES SHOULD NOT BE IMPOSED UPON OTHERS.

>> THOSE POINTS ECHOED BY HIS CLOSE PARTNER, VLADIMIR PUTIN.

EVEN AS HIS MILITARY CONTINUES ITS NIGHTLY BOMBARDMENT OF UKRAINIAN CITIES, DEFYING U. S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S DEMANDS FOR PEACE.

BUT THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES THE WEST OF STARTING RUSSIA'S WAR WITH UKRAINE AND MAKES HIS OWN APPEAL FOR A NEW GLOBAL SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE.

>> Translator: A SYSTEM THAT WOULD REPLACE THE OUT DATED EURO CENTRIC AND EURO ATLANTIC MODELS TAKING ACCOUNT THE INTEREST OF THE BROADEST POSSIBLE RANGE OF COUNTRIES TRULY BALANCED.

>> BUT IT IS THE PRESENCE OF INDIA'S PRIME MINISTER THAT HAS BEEN MOST NOTABLE AT THIS GATHERING.

NARENDRA MODI CAME TO CHINA STILL STINGING FROM 50% TARIFFS IMPOSED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ON INDIAN GOODS.

SNUBBED BY WASHINGTON, MODI IS NOW MENDING FENCES WITH CHINA.

DESPITE AN ONGOING CHINESE-INDIAN BORDER DISPUTE THAT FIVE YEARS AGO TURNED VERY DEADLY.

MODI ALSO SPENT AN HOUR TALKING TO PUTIN IN THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT'S LIMOUSINE, DEMONSTRATING INDIA HAS OTHER POWERFUL FRIENDS IF IT CAN NO LONGER COUNT ON U. S. SUPPORT.

>> OUR THANKS TO IVAN WATSON REPORTING THERE FOR US.

FOR MORE ANALYSIS ON THIS LET'S BRING IN RICHARD HAAS, A LONG TIME DIPLOMAT AND PRESIDENT EMERITUS OF THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.

RICHARD, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

SO THREE YEARS AGO PUTIN DID APPEAR TO BE ISOLATED ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

EVEN XI JINPING HAD WARNED HIM ABOUT HIS ADVANCEMENTS INTO UKRAINE.

MODI ALSO KEPT HIS DISTANCE AND WARNED HIM ABOUT KEEPING PEACE.

NOW THINGS LOOK QUITE DIFFERENT.

WE SAW THE CHUMMINESS BETWEEN THE THREE OF THEM HOLDING HANDS.

IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT PUTIN IS ISOLATED IN A NUMBER OF CAPITALS NOW.

I'M WONDERING FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS THIS NOT ONLY SHOWING THAT PUTIN CAN SURVIVE THIS ILLEGAL WAR ON UKRAINE NOW THREE YEARS LATER BUT, IN FACT, REBUILD A NETWORK THAT SHOWS PERHAPS WEAKENED WESTERN LEVERAGE OVER HIM?

>> IN A WORD, YES.

FIRST ON PUTIN'S SIDE YOU HAVE THE CHINESE WHO ARE MORE THAN HAPPY TO HAVE THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST TIED DOWN IN A WAR IN EUROPE DEPLETING SOME OF OUR MILITARY CAPABILITIES.

PLUS THE CHINESE ARE VERY CURIOUS ABOUT HOW THE WORLD REACTS OR DOESN'T REACT TO USE OF FORCE AS PUTIN'S USING IT BECAUSE THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY THINKING WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS?

WHAT ARE THE PARALLELS POTENTIALLY FOR TAIWAN?

INDIA'S MORE THAN HAPPY TO CONTINUE TO IMPORT DISCOUNTED RUSSIAN ENERGY.

INDIA'S ALSO TO A CONSIDERABLE DEGREE STILL DEPENDENT UPON RUSSIAN ARMS.

AND THEN I THINK THIS ALSO SHOWS A FAILURE OF THE UNITED STATES.

I ACTUALLY THINK THERE'S A DECENT CHANCE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION HERE ABOUT WHO LOST INDIA.

WHY IS IT THAT IT STRATEGIC AND ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP WE HAD BEEN CAREFULLY BUILDING OVER THE COURSE OF, WHAT, TWO OR THREE DECADES NOW -- WHY HAS THIS ESSENTIALLY BEEN KICKED AWAY?

AND I THINK THE LARGER POINT HERE AND SO MUCH GOES TO YOUR BASIC REPORT HERE YOU HAVE RUSSIA, CHINA, AND INDIA CREATING CONNECTIONS WITH INYESSING LEE AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY IS ABOUT DISTANCING ITSELF FROM OUR ALLIES.

AND IT WASN'T THAT LONG AGO THAT HAVING ALLIES AND HAVING FRIENDS WAS THE GREAT COMPARATIVE STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE OF AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY, AND THAT TO ME IS IN SOME WAYS THE FUNDAMENTAL COST OF A FOREIGN POLICY THAT TREATS ALLIES NOT AS FRIENDS OR PARTNERS OR ANYTHING SPECIAL BUT JUST SIMPLY OTHER ENTITIES WITH WHOM TO CONDUCT A TRANSACTIONAL SET OF EXCHANGES.

>> IS IT REALLY --DOES IT JUST IN YOUR VIEW COME DOWN TO A TRANSACTIONAL RELATIONSHIP?

BECAUSE IT DID SEEM PRESIDENT TRUMP DURING HIS FIRST TERM WAS ALSO PURSUING THAT PATH IN TERMS OF A POLICY VISA VI CHINA, VISA VI INDIA, PUSHING CHINA AWAY FROM THOSE ALLIANCES AND DRAWING CLOSER TO INDIA.

THE TWO MEN HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

I THINK MODI WAS THE FIRST FOREIGN LEADER OR ONE OF THE FIRST FOREIGN LEADERS TO VISIT PRESIDENT TRUMP AT THE WHITE HOUSE AFTER PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN WE SEE THIS HUGE RIFT.

DO YOU THINK IT COMES DOWN TO, AS "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAD ALLUDED, THAT MODI WOULD NOT NOMINATE TRUMP FOR OR DID SAY HE DESERVED A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AFTER HE WOULDN'T PUBLICLY SAY THAT IT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO STOPPED THE FIGHTING MOST RECENTLY BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN.

DOES IT COME DOWN TO JUST THAT?

>> LOOK, THIS IS A HIGHLY PERSONALISTIC FOREIGN POLICY ON OUR SIDE.

IT'S THE MOST TOP- DOWN DIVISION MAKING PROCESS I'VE EVER SEEN.

BUT I ALSO THINK ONE OF THE HALLMARKS IS WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL ECONOMICS FIRST.

HYSTERICALLY U. S. PRESIDENT EVER SINCE WORLD WAR II WHILE THEY'VE KEPT ECONOMIC INSTRUMENTS IN MIND THEY'VE BEEN STRATEGIC FIRST, THINKING IF WE HAD ORDER IN THE WORLD THAT WOULD CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE U. S. ECONOMIC INTERESTS WOULD DO JUST FINE.

AND BY THE WAY, THEY DID.

THIS HAS BEEN A REMARKABLE RUN OF HISTORY FOR THE UNITED STATES AND FOR THE AMERICAN ECONOMY.

DONALD TRUMP, FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE --I TEND TO DISAGREE ON THIS -- IS PUT ECONOMIC SENSE IN A VARY NARROW SENSE AT THE CENTER OF AMERICAN POLICY AND HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT STABILITY OR RELATIONSHIPS.

SO HE SEES INDIA, AGAIN, NOT AS A SPECIAL CASE, CERTAINLY NOT AS THE CORNERSTONE OF A SET OF RELATIONSHIPS MEANT TO PUT PRESSURE ON CHINA.

SO CHINA RIGHT NOW IF IT DOESN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ITS BORDER WITH INDIA, IT GIVES IT MUCH MORE FREEDOM TO FOCUS ITS CALORIES AND ITS RESOURCES AND ITS ENERGIES ON THE SOUTH CHINA SEA AND ON TAIWAN.

SO TO ME THIS WOULD BE A REAL STRATEGIC SETBACK FOR US.

BUT THIS IS AN ADMINISTRATION, AGAIN, THAT REPRESENTS A REAL DEPARTURE IN HOW IT APPROACHES THE WORLD.

>> AND WE SAW MODI AND XI SAY THEIR RELATIONSHIP WILL NOW BE BUILT ON PARTNERSHIP AND NOT RIVALRY.

WE'LL SEE IF THAT ACTUALLY UNFOLDS, BUT THAT'S STILL A BOLD STATEMENT TO MAKE NONETHELESS IN MODI'S FIRST TRIP TO CHINA IN SOME SEVEN YEARS.

WE ARE GETTING SOME REPORTING FROM BLOOMBERG IN TERMS OF WHY THE UNITED STATES, IF THE FOCUS IS ON BUYING RUSSIAN OIL AND WANTING TO PUT PRESSURE ON RUSSIA, IS NOT PUTTING HEAVIER SANCTION ON CHINA, WHICH IS THE NUMBER ONE PURCHASER OF RUSSIAN OIL AND INSTEAD FOCUSING ON INDIA AND U. S. /NATO ENVOY MATT MITTKER, IS TELLING BLOOMBERG NEWS TRUMP HAS NOT PUT TARIFFS ON CHINA AS NEGOTIATION BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES IS ONGOING AND THAT THE WAR IN UKRAINE IS PART OF THAT DISCUSSION.

VLADIMIR PUTIN IN CHINA ONCE AGAIN REITERATING AND REWRITING HISTORY SAYING THAT IT WAS THE WEST TO BLAME FOR THE CURRENT SITUATION IN UKRAINE RIGHT NOW AND ALSO SAYING THAT THERE HAD BEEN SOME MUTUAL AGREEMENT AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT REACHED IN THAT SUMMIT IN ALASKA BETWEEN TRUMP AND PUTIN.

HOW MUCH OF A WIN HAVE THE PAST FEW WEEKS BEEN FOR PUTIN ON THE GLOBAL STAGE IN YOUR VIEW?

>> THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT FEW WEEKS FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN.

HE GOT TAKEN OUT, IF YOU WILL, THE INTERNATIONAL PENALTY BOX.

HE GOT ACCEPTED BY THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO MEET ON AMERICAN SOIL WITHOUT PRECONDITIONS.

THE SUMMIT CAME AND WENT, AND ALL I CAN SEE IS THAT RUSSIAN MILITARY FORCES CONTINUE TO ATTACK UKRAINE WITH ENORMOUS FREQUENCY AND VIOLENCE.

COMING BACK TO YOUR LEAD, AND LET ME JUST SAY THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD HERE.

WE SHOULD BE PUTTING PRESSURE ON CHINA IF WE'RE GOING TO PUT PRESSURE ON INDIA.

BUT OBVIOUSLY THIS ADMINISTRATION IS WORRIED ABOUT CHINESE CUT OFF OF RARE EARTH MINERALS AND SO FORTH.

AND IF WE'RE REALLY SERIOUS AN EVEN MORE FUNDAMENTAL POINT ABOUT PUTTING PRESSURE ON VLADIMIR PUTIN, WHICH WE SHOULD BE BECAUSE HE CONTINUES TO VIOLATE THE MOST BASIC LAW IN THE WORLD, THE TERRITORY NOT TO BE ACQUIRED BY FORCE.

THERE'S TWO WAYS TO DO IT.

WE SHOULD BE PUTTING SANCTIONS DIRECTLY ON RUSSIA.

AND SECONDLY, WE OUGHT TO BE HELPING UKRAINE A LOT MORE THAN WE ARE.

LET'S GIVE UKRAINE THE MILITARY WHEREWITHAL IT NEEDS ONE TO DEFEND ITSELF, TO FRUSTRATE CONVENTIONAL RUSSIAN FORCES AND TWO THE COST ON RUSSIA.

WE SHOULD BE GIVING UKRAINE THE MEANS TO ATTACK RUSSIAN MILITARY INSTALLATIONS, MAYBE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, AND WE'RE NOT DOING IT.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP, I SAY, YES, IT'S GOOD YOU'RE PUSHING FOR PEACE BUT YOUR OWN POLICY IS SABOTAGING YOUR OWN GOAL.

>> INSTEAD PRESIDENT PUTIN AND PRESIDENT XI ANNOUNCED A POWER OF SIBERIA 2 PIPELINE.

THAT'S A 30- YEAR GAS PROJECT BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES TODAY.

IN TERMS OF THE MESSAGE THAT CHINA AND XI IS HOPING TO SEND AS ONE OF STABILITY AND LEADERSHIP GOING FORWARD, I'D LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FOR YOU FROM XI AT THE START OF THE SUMMIT, AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT AFTER.

>> Translator: WE SHOULD ADVOCATE FOR AN EQUAL AND ORDERLY MULTI-POLAR WORLD AND A UNIVERSALLY BENEFICIAL AND INCLUSIVELY ECONOMIC GLOBALIZATION AND MAKE THE GLOBAL GOVERNANCE SYSTEM MORE JUST AND EQUITABLE.

>> IN THAT PUSH TO A MULTI-POLAR WORLD FROM A UNI- POLAR WORLD IS SOMETHING PUTIN HAS BEEN TOUTING FOR DECADES NOW AND SEEN AS A DIG OF WESTERN LEADERS AND HIMSELF.

HE SAID IT WAS URGENTLY NEEDED AT A TIME WHEN LEADERSHIP WAS IN DEFICIT.

WHAT MESSAGE SHOULD THE WHITE HOUSE BE TAKING FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN TRANSPIRE THESE PAST FEW DAYS IN CHINA?

>> THEY SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE SEEING.

WHAT THIS SUGGESTS IS THE CHINESE HELP FOR RUSH'S MILITARY EFFORT IN UKRAINE IS GOING TO CONTINUE.

EFFORTS TO ISOLATE VLADIMIR PUTIN WILL INCREASINGLY FAIL.

THE STRATEGIC CONNECTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN BUILT WITH INDIA ARE FAST FADING.

AND INDIA IN SOME WAYS HAS ALMOST RESUME ITS COLD WAR STANCE OF STRATEGIC MANIPULATION OR IMPROVISATION SO IT CAN MAINTAIN TIES TO EVERYONE, BUT IT'S MOVING AWAY FROM THE WEST.

AND IT ALSO OUGHT TO BE A REMINDER THAT IF WE STOP DOING THINGS, CHINA WILL FILL THE VACUUM.

WE DID A MASSIVE ATTACK ON THE AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT.

WE'VE DONE A MASSIVE ATTACK ON THE GLOBAL TRADE ARCHITECTURE AND SO FORTH.

WELL, CHINA IS GOING TO FILL THOSE SPACES.

THIS IS A --WE'RE CREATING OPPORTUNITIES FOR CHINESE ECONOMIC TIES, FOR CHINESE INFLUENCE TO BECOME A MORE RELIABLE PROVIDER OF SECURITY OR ECONOMIC TIES THAN IS THE UNITED STATES.

SO THIS IS A WORLD WHERE OVER TIME BUT PROBABLY SOONER RATHER THAN LATER WE'RE GOING TO FIND OURSELVES WITH MUCH LESS INFLUENCE AND FAR FEWER --FAR FEWER PARTNERS TO DO THINGS THAT WE WANT THEM TO DO.

THIS IS --WE'RE ACCELERATING THE EMERGENCE OF A POST-AMERICAN WORLD, IT SEEMS TO ME WE'VE IGNORED SO MANY OF THE BENEFITS THAT ACCRUE TO US OR THAT DID ACCRUE TO US OVER THE LAST EIGHT DECADES.

>> IT IS NOTABLE ESPECIALLY AS THE WORLD AND THE SUMMIT EVEN AND TOMORROW WE WILL SEE MASSIVE PAGEANTRY THERE IN CHINA, PERHAPS SIMILAR EVEN OUTDOING WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN MOSCOW IN TERMS OF NEW WEAPONRY THAT WILL BE DISPLAYED FOR THE WORLD AT THE 80-YEAR COMMEMORATION OF THE END OF WORLD WAR II.

AND LIKE VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT XI HAS REALLY BEEN FOCUSED ON CHINA'S ROLE HISTORICALLY AND IN THE WAR AND REWRITING HISTORY THERE.

UKRAINE ALSO NOTING THAT NOTHING WAS MENTIONED IN THE COMMUNIQUE ABOUT THE WAR IN ITS COUNTRY ONGOING RIGHT NOW.

HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT THIS NARRATIVE SHIFT FIRST IN RUSSIA, NOT ONLY ABOUT THE PAST AND WORLD WAR II BUT EVEN ABOUT THE CURRENT WAR THERE IN CHINA WITH XI TRYING TO STRATEGICALLY ALTER THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY'S ROLE IN THE END OF WORLD WAR II AS WELL?

>> WELL, THIS IS A GIFT IN SOME WAYS TO THESE AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS, AS WE ROLL BACK THE PROMOTION OF DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD AS THE EXAMPLE WE SET AS A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY, AS THAT FADES.

AGAIN, THIS CREATES TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY.

IT'S ALMOST A FREE GIFT WE'RE GIVING TO THE THESE AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS.

THEY SEE GREATER STRATEGIC AND ECONOMIC UPSIDES IN TERMS OF COOPERATING WITH ONE ANOTHER.

WE'RE NOT IMPOSING A COST ON EITHER.

WE'RE LETTING PUTIN CONTINUE HIS WAR IN UKRAINE.

WE'RE NOT DOING MUCH TO HELP UKRAINE, AND WE CONTINUE TO ARTICULATE OUR DESIRE FOR A NEW BIG DEAL WITH CHINA,O CHINA'S NOT PAYING A PRICE FOR THIS.

WE JUST REDUCED MANY OF OUR EXPORT CONTROLS THERE.

SO I WOULD THINK FOR THE CHINESE AND THE RUSSIANS, THIS HAS BEEN A --AN UNEXPECTED, WHAT, WIND FALL IN TERMS OF THEIR NATIONAL SECURITY, IN TERMS OF THEIR FOREIGN POLICY.

THEY SEE THE TRENDS HERE.

THE UNITED STATES IS LESS INVOLVED IN THE WORLD.

CERTAINLY WE'RE LESS INVOLVED WITH OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS.

WE'RE LESS PREDICTABLE.

SO MY SENSE IS WE CAN EXPECT GREATER NOT JUST COORDINATION BETWEEN THOSE TWO BUT PROBABLY GREATER OPPORTUNISM.

I THINK WHAT WE CAN EXPECT THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO PRESS AGAINST WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL THE POST- COLD WAR WORLD AND POST EVEN WORLD WAR II WORLD BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER SEE AN AMERICAN PUSH BACK, NO LONGER SEE AN ALLIANCE STRUCTURE AGAINST THEM.

WE SHOULD SEE INCREASINGLY AN UNDEMOCRATIC WORLD, AN UNMARKETED WORLD.

THIS IS MANY WAYS STARTING TO UNDO SOME OF THE BASICS WHAT WE HAVE TAKEN FOR GRANTED.

>> TO THAT POINT THE FAMED INVESTOR --I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAID THIS THIS MORNING --SAID U. S. POLITICS ARE ANALOGOUS TO THE 1930s AND 1940s, DRIFTING TOWARDS AUTOCRACY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THOSE WORDS?

I MEAN, I TYPICALLY LIKE TO END THESE INTERVIEWS WITH SOME BIT OF OPTIMISM, BUT THE FACT HE GOES ONTO TALK ABOUT CONCERNS ABOUT THE U. S. ECONOMY, ITS LEADERSHIP AROUND THE WORLD, OBVIOUSLY THE STATE OF DEMOCRACY HERE AND THE FACT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP NOW AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT.

>> I SAW WHAT RAY DALIO SAID.

LOOK, WE ARE MOVING AWAY FROM CAPITALISM.

WE'RE INCREASINGLY STATE CAPITALISM, ALMOST AMERICAN CAPITALISM WITH CHINESE CHARACTERISTICS.

I WORRY ABOUT A MORE AUTHORITARIAN AMERICA.

LOOK AT SO MANY EXAMPLES OF THE EXTENSION OF EXECUTIVE POWER, THE PUSHING BACK AGAINST INDEPENDENT INSTITUTIONS AND INCREASINGLY A PRESIDENT WHO'S SURROUNDING HIMSELF WITH LOYALTISTS.

THE NOTION OF SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.

IT'S A GREAT IRONY.

THINK ABOUT IT.

HERE WE ARE LESS THAN A YEAR AWAY FROM THE 250th ANNIVERSARY OF THIS COUNTRY, OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, AND WHAT ARE WE DOING?

WE'RE ACTUALLY MOVING AWAY FROM SOME OF THE PRESEPS THAT MAKE US WHO WE ARE, THAT HAVE GOTTEN US TO THIS POINT.

SO, YES, WE OUGHT TO BE WORRIED AND THE MESSAGE OUGHT TO BE THERE.

WE CAN'T TAKE WHAT MADE THIS COUNTRY GREAT.

LET ME USE THAT WORD CONSCIOUSLY.

WE CAN'T TAKE THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY FOR GRANTED.

NEEDS TO BE CONSTANTLY, CONSTANTLY DEFENDED AND ADVOCATED FOR.

AND THAT TO ME IS THE REALITY AS WE HEAD TOWARDS JULY 4th OF 2026.

>> AND HERE WE HAVE PRESIDENT TRUMP LITERALLY TAKING ELECTION ADVICE FROM VLADIMIR PUTIN OF ALL PEOPLE IN THEIR MEETING IN ALASKA.

QUITE OMINOUS.

RICHARD HAAS, THERE'S ALWAYS HOPE, THOUGH, SO LET'S END ON THAT NOTE.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

HOPE YOU HAD A GREAT SUMMER.

> >> RESCUERS ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO REACH SURVIVORS AFTER A POWERFUL EARTHQUAKE STRUCK EASTERN AFGHANISTAN.

AT LEAST 800 PEOPLE WERE KILLED, MORE THAN 2,800 INJURED IN THE 6.

0 MAGNITUDE QUAKE.

MILITARY HELICOPTERS FLEW MISSIONS THROUGHOUT THE DAY TO EVACUATE CASUALTIES.

ENTIRE TOWNS AND VILLAGES HAVE BEEN DECIMATED IN THE REMOTE MOUNTAINOUS REGION NEAR THE PAKISTAN BORDER.

OUR CORRESPONDENT HAS THIS REPORT ON THE ONGOING OPERATIONS MADE MORE DIFFICULT BY BOTH THE PHYSICAL TERRAIN AND THE ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL CONDITIONS IN THE COUNTRY.

>> CHAOS OF SCENES SEARCHING FOR SURVIVORS IN THE DARK.

MOST PEOPLE ASLEEP IN THEIR HOMES WHEN THE MAGNITUDE 6.

0 QUAKE STRUCK.

BY DAY THE SCALE OF DESTRUCTION BECOMING CLEARER.

THIS YOUNG BOY DESPERATELY CALLING FOR HIS OLDER BROTHER, AS OTHER VILLAGERS ARRIVE TO HELP.

THE RELATIVELY SHALLOW QUAKE 8 KILOMETERS OR 5 MILES CONTRIBUTING TO THE DESTRUCTION AND STAGGERING DEATH TOLL.

KUNAR PROVINCE, THE WORST AFFECTED.

HOMES HERE ARE OFTEN MADE OF MUD, ROCK, AND TREES, PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE TO QUAKES.

95% OF THE HOUSES IN OUR VILLAGE HAVE BEEN DESTROYED, THIS SURVIVOR SAYS.

EVERY HOUSEHOLD HAS LOST BETWEEN 5 TO 10 FAMILY MEMBERS.

WE APPEAL TO ALL MUSLIMS TO OPEN THEIR HEARTS AND HELP US AT THIS TIME OF HARDSHIP.

SOME OF THE WORST AFFECTED AREAS IN THE MOUNTAINOUS RURAL EAST OF AFGHANISTAN COULD ONLY BE REACHED BY HELICOPTER, AS THE ROADS ALREADY WEAKENED BY WEEKS OF HEAVY RAIN, WERE CUT BY QUAKE-INDUCED LANDSLIDES.

>> THERE ARE SOME LOCATIONS AND SOME VILLAGES IN A FEW OF THE MOST HARD HIT DISTRICTS THAT ARE ONLY VISIBLE BY FOOT UP TO 3 HOURS AND OF COURSE THE PRIORITY IS ALSO TO UNBLOCK IMPASSABLE ROADS.

>> THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN WARNING WHILE THEY'VE REACHED MOST VILLAGES, IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME BEFORE INTERNATIONAL AID AGENCIES WILL GET THERE TO HELP.

THE NEAREST MAJOR CITY, JILALABAD RECEIVING SOME OF THE INJURED.

ONLY THE LUCKIEST SURVIVORS ABLE TO GET TO HOSPITAL.

AT LEAST ONE NGO THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE REPORTING ENTIRE VILLAGES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

IN OUR DISTRICT ALONE 100 TO 150 PEOPLE WERE KILLED, THIS MAN SAYS.

WE STILL DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER OF THE INJURED, THE ROADS ARE STILL CLOSED.

THE TALIBAN-RULED COUNTRY IS ALREADY REELING FROM THE EFFECTS OF SHRINKING INTERNATIONAL AID BUDGETS.

HEALTH CARE AT THE FOREFRONT OF BASIC SERVICES IMPACTED.

U. S. AID CONTRACTS ALONE DOWN $1.

7 BILLION OVER THE LAST YEAR.

IN 2023 A MAGNITUDE 6.

3 QUAKE CAUSED MORE THAN 2,000 DEATHS.

NOT CLEAR IF THE TOLL THIS TIME WILL EXCEED THAT.

BUT FOR SURE THE COUNTRY'S ABILITY TO COPE WITH THIS TYPE OF CATASTROPHE IS WEAKENING.

>> OUR THANKS TO NICK ROBERTSON.

> >> NOW WE TURN TO THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE ISRAEL TODAY IS CALLING UP THE FIRST GROUP OF 60,000 ARMY RESERVISTS TO AID ITS PLANNED TAKEOVER AND OCCUPATION OF GAZA CITY.

THIS DESPITE THE IDF'S OWN CHIEF OF STAFF REPORTEDLY OPPOSING THE MASSIVE ESCALATION.

IT COMES AMID A GROWING CHORUS OF HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS AND POLITICIANS WHO ARE CONDEMNING THE MOVE, WARNING IT WILL HAVE A DISASTROUS IMPACT ON THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS LIVING THERE AS WELL AS THE HOSTAGES.

HERE'S U. N. 'S SECRETARY- GENERAL ANTONIO GUTERRES.

>> UNBELIEVABLY CIVILIANS ARE FACING YET ANOTHER DEADLY ESCALATION.

ISRAEL'S INITIAL STEPS TO MILITARY TAKEOVER GAZA CITY SIGNALS A NEW AND DANGEROUS PHASE.

EXPANDED MILITARY OPERATIONS IN GAZA CITY WILL HAVE DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES, AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS ALREADY EXHAUSTED AND TRAUMATIZED WILL BE FORCED TO FLEE YET AGAIN, PLUNGING FAMILIES INTO EVEN DEEPER PERIL.

THESE MUST STOP.

I PLEAD ONCE AGAIN FOR AN IMMEDIATE AND PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE AND HUMANITARIAN ACCESS ACROSS GAZA AND THE UNCONDITIONAL IMMEDIATE RELEASE OF ALL HOSTAGES.

STARVATION OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION MUST NEVER BE USED AS A MATTER OF WARFARE.

>> WELL, ANY HOPES FOR A CEASE-FIRE DEAL NOW SEEM FAR OFF.

AND THE DEVASTATION AND SUFFERING CONTINUES.

NEARLY TWO YEARS OF WAR MORE THAN 63,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA, ACCORDING TO HEALTH OFFICIALS THERE.

SOME 50 HOSTAGES REMAIN IN CAPTIVITY.

ABOUT 20 OF THEM ARE NOT TO BE ALIVE.

THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES THEMSELVES CONTINUE TO BE LOUD CRITICS OF THE WAR AND OF THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT, URGING AN END TO THE CONFLICT AND FOR THEIR LOVED ONES TO BE BROUGHT HOME.

LET'S BRING IN ISRAELI JOURNALIST RONAN BERGMAN WHO JOINS ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV.

RONAN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AS WE NOTE SOME 60,000 RESERVISTS HAVE BEEN CALLED UP -- HAVE STARTED TO BE CALLED UP FOR THIS GAZA CITY OPERATION EVEN THOUGH THE IDF CHIEF OF STAFF HIMSELF HAND PICKED BY PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO, WE SHOULD NOTE, HAS VOICED SERIOUS OPPOSITION AND CONCERNS ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF THIS OPERATION ITSELF.

WE'VE ALSO HEARD SOME PUSHBACK INTERNALLY FROM SOME CABINET MINISTERS, TOO.

HOW RARE IS THIS TO SEE SUCH A BREAK IN DIVISION BETWEEN MILITARY OFFICIALS EVEN SOME CABINET MEMBERS AND THE PRIME MINISTER HIMSELF?

>> THAT'S EXACTLY THE SITUATION, BIANNA.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME EVER THAT SUCH SITUATION OCCURRED.

IN THE LONG AND SOMETIMES HISTORY OF FRICTION WITH POLITICAL LEADERS OF THE MILITARY.

BUT NOTHING CLOSE TO THAT.

IT'S NOT JUST THIS IS IMPORTANT ABOUT THE GROWING DEATH TOLL AMONG PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

IT'S ABOUT THE CHIEF OF STAFF TELLING THE PRIME MINISTER, THE CABINET, AND THE WHOLE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL THAT INVADING GAZA CITY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BRING EITHER BOTH -- NEITHER OF THE --NONE OF THE WAR GOALS.

IT WILL NOT BRING THE ULTIMATE VICTORY THAT NETANYAHU'S TALKING ABOUT.

IT WOULD NOT BRING THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGE WHERES, THE LIVE HOSTAGES SUFFERING FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS, THE HORRIBLE CONDITIONS.

WE SAW SOME OF THE VIDEOS THAT HAMAS RELEASED.

IT WILL NOT BRING THE DISARMAMENT OF -- OF GAZA.

IT WILL BRING THE MILITARY SAYS BETWEEN 3 TO 5 YEARS OF MILITARY OCCUPATION OF THE WHOLE STRIP IN ORDER TO HAVE SOME KIND OF VICTORY DISMANTLING ALL THE HAMAS MILITANTS, DESTROYING ALL THE TUNNELS, AND CONFISCATING ALL THE ARMS, SOMETHING THAT ISRAEL JUST CANNOT STAND.

IT WILL BRING A DISASSEMBLEMENT OF THE ARMED FORCES AND NOT BRING THE DAY AFTER SOMETHING THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO SPEAK ABOUT AND DISCUSS EVEN INTERNALLY FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS.

THE CHIEF OF STAFF, THE LIEUTENANT GENERAL ZAMIR SAID, GOING INTO GAZA MEANS GOING INTO A DEATH TRAP FOR THE SOLDIERS AND MEANS A HIGH RISK OF LIFE FOR THE HOSTAGES.

>> IN TERMS OF THE SOLDIERS MANY OF THEM THIS IS NOW THEIR SECOND, THIRD TOUR OF WAR.

AS WE NOTED THIS IS THE LONGEST WAR IN ISRAEL'S HISTORY AND MANY OF THEM THEMSELVES FEEL EXHAUSTED, DISILLUSIONED AFTER I THINK WE'RE OVER 700 DAYS NOW OF WAR.

HERE'S WHAT ONE RESERVIST SAID.

HE SAID WE TALK AND SAY WHAT WE THINK, BUT THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

I CAN'T RECALL SUCH A HEAVY FEELING IN PREVIOUS TOURS.

EVEN FROM TALKING WITH COMMANDERS IT'S CLEAR WE'RE GOING INTO A WAR EVEN THE IDF DOESN'T WANT.

HOW DEEP A CRISIS IS THIS WITHIN THE RANKS OF THE IDF, AND IS THERE CONCERN AMONG THESE 60,000 RESERVERISTS CALLED UP, THERE COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER THAT DON'T SHOW UP?

>> THE CONCERN IS SEVERE.

THIS IS --AND THERE WERE TIMES DURING THE FIRST LEBANON WAR, THE CONTINUOUS INVASION INTO LEBANON IN THE '80s LEADING THE DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT AND OTHERS, BUT THERE WAS SOME DISPUTES OVER THE --THE GOALS OF SOME WARS OR SOME BATTLES THAT ISRAEL PARTICIPATED IN.

BUT THERE WAS NEVER SUCH A DECISIVE OBJECTION TO GOALS OF WAR THAT BASICALLY NOBODY UNDERSTANDS.

IT'S NOT JUST THE SOLDIERS OF THIS REPORT, IT'S THE LEADERSHIP OF THE MILITARY.

IT'S THE PUBLIC WHO'S BEING MORE AND MORE DISILLUSIONED ABOUT WHAT THE WAR IS ALL ABOUT.

WITH MY COLLEAGUES PUBLISHED ANOTHER LONG REPORT OF NETANYAHU.

EVERY TIME AGAIN AND AGAIN HE COULD HAVE A PATH TO END THE WAR AND BRING A NEW PAGE TO THIS DISASTROUS CLASH AND WAR, HE CHOSE THE OTHER WAY.

HE PREFERRED HIS COALITION AND CONTINUED THE WAR.

WE ARE SEEING IT HAPPENING JUST AGAIN.

NETANYAHU IS PUTTING THE PRIORITY --THE FIRST PRIORITY ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE THE INTEGRITY OF THE COALITION.

AND THE PEOPLE OF THE MILITARY, THE PEOPLE OF THE PUBLIC, THEY KNOW THAT.

>> YEAH.

>> AND I THINK THERE ARE THREE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD THAT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE PLAN BECAUSE THE MILITARY DOESN'T UNDERSTAND.

THESE PEOPLE ARE THE MINISTER ROAN DERMER, CLOSE AIDE TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND POSSIBLY PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT IS GIVING CONFLICTING SIGNALS ON WHAT EXACTLY HE IS WISHING AND ASKING, MAYBE MORE THAN ASKING ISRAEL TO DO.

>> WELL, CONFLICTING IS THE RIGHT WORD TO USE HERE BECAUSE NETANYAHU IN RESPONSE TO THE PUSHBACK NOT ONLY FROM THE IDF CHIEF OF STAFF AND FROM POLLING IN ISRAEL AND FROM I THINK THE MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS THAT HAVE NOW AT LEAST RAISED CONCERN ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF THE WAR IF NOT DIRECTLY DEMANDING THAT IT COME TO AN END, NETANYAHU'S RESPONSE IS THAT HE SPOKE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HE HAS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FULL BACKING TO, QUOTE, FINISH THE JOB.

NOT ACCEPT A PARTIAL DEAL THAT ISRAEL WAS HOPING TO AND WILLING TO ACCEPT JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO.

THE TABLES SEEM TO HAVE TURNED.

NOW IT'S HAMAS WILLING TO ACCEPT A PARTIAL DEAL.

LET'S SEE IF THEY FOLLOW THROUGH ON THAT.

BUT IT DOES APPEAR AT LEAST ON PAPER THAT THE TABLES HAVE TURNED.

NETANYAHU SAYING I HAVE THE PRESIDENT'S BACKING.

THE PRESIDENT, THOUGH, SEEMS TO BE CHECKED OUT FROM TIME TO TIME, NOT REALLY AS INVESTED IN THIS WAR.

CONSTANTLY STATING THAT HE BROUGHT HOME A NUMBER OF HOSTAGES, AND NOW SORT OF THE BALL'S IN NETANYAHU'S COURT.

HOW MUCH OF THIS IS FACT THAT NETANYAHU'S SAYING, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TELLING HIM GO AHEAD FINISH THE JOB?

>> WELL, WE DID NOT SEE ANY KIND OF PUSHBACK FROM THE PRESIDENT'S COURT.

BUT I THINK THAT AT LEAST ACCORDING TO SOME SOURCES THE SITUATION IS THAT THERE IS SOME KIND OF A SECRET MAYBE WRITTEN, MAYBE UNWRITTEN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND JERUSALEM, THAT ISRAEL WILL DELIVER, WILL HAND OVER THE RULE OF GAZA TO THE U. S. THE U. S. IN ITS TURN WILL TAKE SOME CUSTODY OVER THE STRIP AND THEN PASS IT ONTO SOME KIND OF INTERNATIONAL ORTIUM THAT WILL HAVE THE --AND SAUDI ARABIA, THE UAE AND EGYPT THAT WILL TAKE CONTROL OVER GAZA.

THE PROBLEM WITH THIS VERY CLEAN AND SORT OF PASSAGE AND THE SITUATION IS THAT THE CONDITION IS THAT THE IDF WILL HAND OVER THE --THE STICK TO THE U. S. ONLY WHEN GAZA IS TOTALLY FREE OF HAMAS.

NOW, MAYBE PRESIDENT TRUMP BELIEVES -- MAYBE SOMEONE TOLD HIM THAT THIS WILL TAKE TWO OR THREE WEEKS, BUT THE IDF SAYS IT WILL TAKE AT LEAST THREE YEARS.

SO BASICALLY WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SAYING TO PRIME MINISTER IT'S OKAY TO GO IN FAST, IT MEANS THAT IT'S EITHER SOME KIND OF SECRET PLAN THAT WE DON'T KNOW OR MAYBE MORE REALISTICALLY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP GAVE THE OKAY TO CONTINUE THE WAR ENDLESSLY BECAUSE THIS WILL NOT END IN TWO OR THREE WEEKS.

>> WELL, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALREADY SAID --I MEAN, HE SAID IN AN INTERVIEW HERE, AND THIS GOES BACK TO YOUR WORD CONFLICTING BECAUSE TRUMP IS STATING WHAT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS, THAT THIS WAR IS DAMAGING, AS HE HAS SAID.

HE SAID THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

THEY MAY BE WINNING THE WAR, THEY'RE NOT WINNING THE WORLD OF PUBLIC RELATIONS.

YOU KNOW IT IS HURTING THEM.

THEY'RE GOING HAVE TO GET THIS WAR OVER WITH.

AND THAT WAS JUST ON FRIDAY IN AN INTERVIEW WITH "THE DAILY COLLAR. "

IT SEEMS VERY UNREALISTIC THIS MEETING THE DAY AFTER IN THE WHITE HOUSE LAST WEEK, "THE WASHINGTON POST" HAD SOME DETAILS ABOUT BUILDING THE RIVERIA OF THE MIDDLE EAST, THE A. I.

PROJECTIONS AND ALL OF THAT.

BUT AT SOME POINT IT DOES APPEAR THAT TRUMP IS GOING TO GET SICK OF HAVING TO DEAL WITH THIS AS WELL ESPECIALLY AS WE GET CLOSER TO THE MID-TERMS.

IT WAS INTERESTING TO HAVE FOREIGN MINISTER SAAR EVEN WEIGH IN AND EXPRESS SOME CORRECTIONS ABOUT THIS TAKE OVER OF GAZA CITY.

HE JUST CAME BACK FROM WASHINGTON AND HE IS CLEARED ABOUT THE ROLE THE MILITARY IS PLAYING ON A GLOBAL STAGE RIGHT NOW AND COMING HERE IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS TO RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE NOT INCLUDED WILL BE PA OFFICIALS, AND THAT IS A NEW EDICT FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT HERE.

NONETHELESS, WHAT IS THE RESPONSE TO A GROWING NUMBER OF COUNTRIES SAYING, IN FACT, THEY WILL RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE?

>> FIRST TO YOUR PREVIOUS POINT, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THIS EXACTLY THE SAME IN AN INTERVIEW HE GAVE IN APRIL 2024.

SO IT SEEMS THAT HE'S CONSISTENT WITH THAT, MEANING HE DOESN'T LIKE THE WAR, HE BELIEVES THAT THIS IS DAMAGING ISRAELI INTERNATIONAL POSITION.

HE THINKS IT NEEDS TO END.

BUT IN THE YEAR AND A HALF PAST AND EIGHT MONTHS HE'S BEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE, HE'S NOT FORCED PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, AND I THINK HE'S THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD THAT CAN DO THAT NOW.

TO YOUR LAST POINT ON INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT AS MANY OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING TO ISRAEL --TO THE ISRAELI PUBLIC, TO THE ISRAELI INTERNATIONAL SITUATION, THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS EITHER IGNORING OR BLAMING THE --THE REST OF THE WORLD.

AS MUCH AS THEY ARE BLAMING NOW PRESIDENT MACRON FOR THE FAILURE OF THE NEGOTIATION, AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE BLAMING HAMAS.

THEY BLAME HAMAS FOR FAILING THE NEGOTIATION, LIKE BLAMING HAMAS FOR OCTOBER 7.

OF COURSE IT'S THEIR FAULT, BUT THEN IT'S UP TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WHEN DEALING WITH SUCH A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION TO DO WHATEVER THEY CAN TO BRING THE HOSTAGES BACK HOME AND END THE WAR.

AND THEY DON'T RECOGNIZE THIS IS BEYOND AND ABOVE EVERYTHING THEY DON'T RECOGNIZE THIS RESPONSIBILITY NOT ON WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th AND NOT ON ANYTHING HAPPENING AFTERWARD.

AND MUCH OF THE TIME SPENT BY THE GUMP IS TO JUST SHIFT THE BLAME ON EVERYTHING TO OTHERS.

>> AND EXCEPT OBVIOUSLY TAKING RESPONSIBILITY HIMSELF INSTEAD NETANYAHU IS WEIGHING ANNEXING PARTS OF THE WEST BANK IN RESPONSE TO A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES NOW RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE.

RONAN BERGMAN, I'M SO SORRY.

WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP RETURNED TO OFFICE MORE THAN SEVEN MONTHS AGO THE U. S. AS WE KNOW IT HAS BEEN UNDERGOING SOME DRAMATIC SHIFTS.

AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER PROMINENT HEDGE FUND RAY DALIO WARNED THIS WEEK THE UNITED STATES IS SLIDING INTO A 1930s STYLE AUTOCRACY.

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

THE FORMER SECRETARY ROBERT REICH BELIEVES WHAT WE ARE SEEING TODAY IS A SERIES OF CHOICES MADE IN THE LAST 50 YEARS.

HE CHRONICLES THEM IN A RECENT MEMOIR "COMING UP SHORT. "

THAT'S A GREAT TITLE I HAVE TO SAY.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS WHAT DEMOCRATS SHOULD DO.

>> WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> YOUR BOOK IS "COMING UP SHORT, A MEMOIR OF MY AMERICA. "

I WANT TO FOCUS ON THAT SUBTITLE BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME WHEN I READ THE BOOK LAST NIGHT IS THAT YOU TAKE YOUR OWN LIFE STORY AND MAKE IT INTO AN ALLEGORY ABOUT AMERICA IN THAT PERIOD.

HOW DID YOU DO THAT AND WHY?

>> FIRST OF ALL, COMING UP SHORT IS INDEED A DOUBLE ENTENDRE BECAUSE YOU KNOW I'M VERY SHORT.

I GREW UP PRIVILEGED TO BE A MEMBER OF THE POST-WAR BABY BOOM.

I DON'T PROPOSE TO KNOW HOW OLD YOU ARE, WALTER.

I'M SURE YOU'RE YOUNGER THAN I AM.

BUT THAT POST- WAR BABY BOOM GENERATION, THE YEAR I WAS BORN FEATURED JUST WITHIN A FEW MONTHS OF MY BIRTH BILL CLINTON, GEORGE W. BUSH, AND DONALD TRUMP.

AND THE BOOK FOCUSES REALLY ON WHAT WE DID, NOT NECESSARILY THOSE INDIVIDUALS ENTIRELY.

I ALSO INCLUDE CLARENCE THOMAS AND MANY OTHERS OF US WHO CAME TO OUR --OUR ADULTHOOD IN THE 1960s, 1970s.

AND HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE THE LEGACY WE WERE GIVEN BY THE SO-CALLED GREATEST GENERATION AND CONTINUE THAT LEGACY IN TERMS OF BUILDING A VERY STRONG AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS AND A STRONGER DEMOCRACY.

BUT WE CAME UP SHORT IN THE SENSE THAT WE ENDED UP WITH DONALD TRUMP AS PRESIDENT.

AND I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOT THE SOURCE OF OUR PROBLEMS.

WHAT I SAY IN THE BOOK IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS MORE THE CONSEQUENCE OR THE CULMINATION OF A LOT OF FAILURES OVER THE LAST 40 OR 50 YEARS TO DEAL WITH WIDENING INEQUALITY.

AND THE PROBLEMS FACED BY THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS THAT ULTIMATELY CHOSE HIM AS PRESIDENT.

>> WELL, LET ME TALK ABOUT THE BABY BOOM GENERATION.

YOU TALK ABOUT SOMEBODY BORN THE YEAR YOU WERE BORN IN THE LATE 1940s HAD ABOUT AN 80% CHANCE OF BEING FINANCIALLY BETTER OFF THAN THEIR PARENTS.

IF YOU WERE BORN IN THE '80s OR '90s YOU HAVE LESS THAN A 50% CHANCE OF BEING BETTER OFF FINANCIALLY.

THAT SEEMS HUGE TO ME.

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHY?

>> IN THE LATE '70s THERE WAS KIND OF A GIANT U-TURN, AND I GET INTO THIS IN THE BOOK.

WE INSTEAD OF CONTINUING TO GROW THE MIDDLE CLASS, WE ACTUALLY DECIDED --AND I SAY WE FIGURATIVELY.

IT WAS NOT EVERYBODY IN AMERICA.

IT WAS ACTUALLY AN INCREASINGLY POLITICALLY POTENT CORPORATE KOSHER OF BIG CORPORATIONS AND WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS WHOSE MONEY BEGAN TO DOMINATE AMERICAN POLITICS IN A WAY THAT DID RIG THE MARKET.

NOW, I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO DRAMATIC ABOUT IT OR SORT OF PARROT EXACTLY WHAT BERNIE SANDERS AND OTHERS HAVE SAID, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF TRUTH TO IT.

THE MARKET DID CHANGE, AND THAT MEANT THAT IF YOU WERE A NON-COLLEGE GRADUATE AND IF YOU WERE --PARTICULARLY IF YOU WERE BROUGHT UP IN THE MIDDLE WEST OR IN THE SOUTH, AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES YOU HAD.

YOU WERE NO LONGER A MEMBER OF A UNION.

UNIONS WERE ABOUT CONSTITUTED SOMETHING IN THE ORDER OF 35% OF ALL THE PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS IN THE 1960s OR '70 s, AND THEN DECLINED TO TODAY NOW 6% OF PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS.

IN MANY, MANY RESPECTS MONOPOLIZATION, FOR EXAMPLE, BIG COMPANIES BECAME MUCH, MUCH STRONGER, MONOPOLIZED THEIR MARKETS IN WAYS THAT IN THE '50s, '60s, '70s, THEY DID NOT.

THE COMBINATION IN WHICH ALL OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THE MARKET WAS RIGGED, MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO FULFILL WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO.

AND THAT IS THE SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT WE HAD COMING OUT OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

>> ONE OF THE THEMES IN YOUR BOOK IS BULLYING, AND YOU WERE BULLIED AS A KID.

AND IN SOME WAYS YOU SAY THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> WELL, I --I BECAME QUITE SENSITIVE TO THE ISSUE OF BULLYING BECAUSE I AM SHORT AND I WAS LIKE MANY CHILDREN ARE BULLIED IN SCHOOL.

BUT ONE OF MY PROTECTORS, ONE OF THE OLDER BOYS I KIND OF LEANED ON OR RELIED ONTO TAKE -- TO PROTECT ME FROM THE BULLIES HIMSELF WAS BULLIED IN A MUCH MORE PROFOUND WAY.

WHEN HE WAS REGISTERING VOTERS IN 1964, HIS NAME WAS MICHAEL SWARNER.

HE AND TWO OTHER CIVIL RIGHTS MEMBERS WERE MURDERED BY THE KU KLUX KLAN.

AND THAT IN MANY WAYS, WALTER, CHANGED MY LIFE AND MY VIEW OF BULLYING.

I BEGAN TO SEE BULLYING IS ABOUT POWER.

IT IS ABOUT POWER.

IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE WITH POWER ABUSING THAT POWER AND TREATING OTHERS WITHOUT POWER IN WAYS THAT EXPLOIT THEM.

AND I'M TALKING ABOUT EMPLOYERS AND EMPLOYEES OR MEN BULLYING WOMEN OR WHITE SUPREMACISTS BULLYING BLACK PEOPLE.

I MEAN YOU SEE BULLYING ALL OVER.

AND AS INEQUALITY HAS WIDENED IN AMERICA OVER THE LAST --STARTING WITH THE LAST 40 YEARS, THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE BULLIES, THOSE AT THE TOP WHO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF RESOURCE, TO TAKE OUT THEIR BULLYING ON PEOPLE WHO ARE WEAKER THAN THEY ARE HAVE INCREASED.

I MEAN, DONALD TRUMP IS THE BULLY OF BULLIES.

I THINK THAT HE WAS ELECTED IN PART BECAUSE OF PEOPLE WHO FELT SO BULLIED BY THE SYSTEM SAW HIM AS SOMEBODY WHO COULD BULLY EVERYBODY ELSE.

OF COURSE, HE IS NOT A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE WORKING CLASS.

HE ACTUALLY HAS PROVIDED HUGE TAX CUTS TO THE WEALTHY AND DEREGULATED WALL STREET AND DEREGULATED THE ENVIRONMENT AND MADE, I THINK, OVER TIME THE WORKING CLASS MUCH MORE VULNERABLE.

NEVERTHELESS, THAT WAS HIS SELLING -- >> WAIT, WAIT.

THEN WHY --WHY DID HE GET A PLURALITY OF THE VOTES?

>> I THINK HE GOT A PLURALITY OF THE VOTES IN 2024 YOU'RE REFERRING TO BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS DID NOT COME UP WITH A RESPONSE TO THE BULLYING.

YOU SEE -- AND I GET AT THIS IN THE BOOK, AND THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE BEEN HARPING ON WHAT ARE FOR YEARS.

AND THAT IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO EXPLAIN TO THE WORKING CLASS, TO THE VAST MIDDLE CLASS THAT HAS FELT BULLIED WHY THE MARKET IS RIGGED AGAINST THEM.

DEMOCRATS NEED TO POINT OUT THAT THE LARGE CORPORATIONS AND THE WEALTHY PEOPLE WHO ARE PUTTING HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY INTO AMERICAN POLITICS ARE DOING THIS IN WAYS THAT HURT MUCH OF THE MIDDLE CLASS AND CERTAINLY THE WORKING CLASS.

AND AS A RESULT, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT PROVIDED AS HAS DONALD TRUMP AND SOME REPUBLICANS BEFORE HIM AN EXPLANATION.

NOW, THE TRUMP EXPLANATION HAS BEEN ABOUT CULTURAL BULLIES.

THE TRUMP EXPLANATION HAS BEEN, WELL, IT'S THE DEEP --YOU KNOW, THE DEEP STATE, OR IT'S IMMIGRANTS OR IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT SUCH AS TRANSGENDER YOUTH.

I MEAN, THE CULTURAL CULPRITS HERE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHY MOST AMERICANS FEEL BULLIED.

BUT IF THE DEMOCRATS DON'T POINT OUT THE REAL BULLIES, THEN THERE'S NO OPPORTUNITY FOR ANYBODY TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND AS A RESULT, DONALD TRUMP OR DEMAGOGUES LIKE HIM ARE ELECTED AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE ELECTED AS FAR AS THE EYE CAN SEE.

DEMOCRATS HAVE GOT TO NAME AND BE CLEAR ABOUT WHO THE NATIONAL BULLIES REALLY ARE, WHY THERE IS BRUTALITY IN THE SYSTEM, WHY THERE IS ABUSE OF POWER IN THE SYSTEM.

>> WHEN DID DEMOCRATS LOSE TOUCH WITH THE WORKING CLASS?

>> WELL, I --IN THE BOOK I TRACE IT BACK TO THE --REALLY THE 1990s.

I MEAN, I AM VERY, VERY PROUD TO HAVE BEEN A MEMBER OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK WE ACCOMPLISHED A GREAT DEAL.

BUT I THINK THAT BILL CLINTON AND A LOT OF THE DEMOCRATS ASSOCIATED WITH THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP COUNCIL.

DO YOU REMEMBER THEM?

THE SO-CALLED MODERATE DEMOCRATS, THE NEW DEMOCRATS, THEY REFUSED TO AND WERE UNWILLING TO REALLY MAKE THE KIND OF ALLIANCE WITH ORGANIZED LABOR, WITH THE GRASSROOTS GROUPS, NAME THE KIND OF BRUTALITY AND THE BULLIES THAT WERE REALLY BEGINNING TO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF POWER IN AMERICA BECAUSE OF ALL THE MONEY IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

AND I THINK THAT AND IN ADOPTING FREE TRADE AND IN DEREGULATING WALL STREET, AND IN TAKING THEIR EYES OFF MONOPOLIES AND ALLOWING COMPANIES TO BASICALLY BASH UNIONS AND GET RID OF UNIONS, ALL OF THIS HELPED PAVE THE WAY FOR DONALD TRUMP.

>> IN THE BOOK, ACTUALLY, YOU TRACE IT EVEN FURTHER BACK TO SOME EXTENT, EVEN TO THE POST HURON STATEMENT AND THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT OF THE '60s AND '70s.

EXPLAIN HOW YOU THINK THAT MAY HAVE LED THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ASTRAY OF GETTING TOO MUCH INTO THIS PROGRESSIVE LEFT IDEOLOGY.

>> WELL, I DON'T REALLY TAKE ON THE, AS YOU POINTED --AS YOU PUT IT, PROGRESSIVE LEFT IDEOLOGY IN THE SENSE THAT I THINK THE CORE PROBLEM.

I MEAN THE PORT HURON STATEMENT I VIEW AS AN IMPORTANT --I STILL VIEW AS A VERY IMPORTANT STATEMENT WITH REGARD TO THE KIND OF POPULIST LEANINGS OF OUR GENERATION, MY GENERATION.

BUT I THINK IT LEFT OUT THE WORKING CLASS.

AND MANY OF THE REFORM MOVEMENTS OF THE '60s, '70s, AND '80s LEFT OUT THE WORKING CLASS.

I MEAN THE WOMAN'S MOVEMENT WAS VERY IMPORTANT, OBVIOUSLY.

EVEN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THE VOTING RIGHTS MOVEMENT, I MEAN I WAS PART OF THAT.

THE ANTI- VIETNAM WAR MOVEMENT, THE MOVEMENT TO PROVIDE EQUAL MARRIAGE RIGHTS, ALL OF THEM TERRIBLY IMPORTANT.

BUT WHAT WAS LEFT OUT WAS THE WORK CLASS AND THE LABOR MOVEMENT.

AND THE CORE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS A LEGACY OF FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT HAVE POWER, REPRESENT PEOPLE WHO WERE REALLY LEFT OUT OF POWER.

BUT IT'S NOT TOO LATE.

I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION GIVES THE DEMOCRATS AND PROGRESSIVES AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO WHAT THEY DID NOT DO IN THE '80s AND '90s AND EVEN AT THE TURN OF THIS CENTURY, AND THAT IS RE-CLAIM THE --THE GROUND THAT WAS LOST.

BECAUSE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS --IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT IS SO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS HAD REPRESENTED AND TRIED TO ACHIEVE.

IT IS IN A SENSE A --AN ADMINISTRATION THAT IS MOREICOSELY ALIGNED.

AND I'M GOING TO USE A WORD HERE THAT I RARELY USE, AND I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE.

BUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS CLOSELY ALIGNED WITH FASCIST MOVEMENTS IN HISTORY.

AND RIGHT-WING MOVEMENTS IN EUROPE, NEO-NAZI MOVEMENTS AROUND THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE.

AND THIS GIVES THE GROUND --THIS GIVES DEMOCRATS ENORMOUS GROUND, ENORMOUS OPPORTUNITY TO REFASHION A COALITION AND CREATE A NEW MULTI-RACIAL, MULTIETHNIC, MULTI-CLASS COALITION THAT IS NOT JUST BASED ON DEMOCRACY.

YES, THAT'S IMPORTANT.

THAT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

BUT IT'S ALSO BASED ON WIDENING PROSPERITY FOR EVERYONE.

>> USING INCREDIBLY LOADED WORD "FASCISM. "

AND IN YOUR BOOK YOU HAVE HENRY WALLACE, THE DEMOCRAT -- VERY PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT WRITING AN ESSAY ABOUT FASCISM.

I THINK IT'S IN THE 1940s.

>> 1944.

THAT WAS INTERESTING.

HENRY WALLACE, VICE PRESIDENT AT THE TIME TO FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, WROTE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE A VERY IMPORTANT ARTICLE LOST MOSTLY TO HISTORY.

I TRIED TO REVIVE IT.

IN WHICH HE WARNS OF AMERICAN FASCISM.

AND THIS IS AT A TIME WE'RE FIGHTING THE SECOND WORLD WAR, BUT HE SEES --WALLACE SEES.

HE WRITES THIS ARTICLE WITH THE PERMISSION OF FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, HE WRITES ABOUT THE UNDERPINNINGS OF THE MONOPOLIZATION OF VERY CRUDE EFFORTS TO DESTROY AMERICAN UNIONS, TRUE LABOR UNIONS, THE EFFORTS OF WHITE SUPREMACISTS TO REASSERT THEMSELVES THROUGH THIS KIND OF QUIET FASCISM THAT HE SEES.

IT'S AN UNDERCURRENT IN AMERICA THAT HENRY WALLACE IDENTIFIES AND THAT UNDOUBTEDLY HAS BEEN THERE BEFORE AND IS --HAS BEEN THERE SINCE -- AT LEAST SINCE THE 1930s AND IS NOW EXPRESSING ITSELF IN WAYS THAT I THINK WALLACE HAD VERY PRESCIENTLY SEEN POSSIBLE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE POPULISM OF THE RIGHT AND MOVING TOWARDSA AUTHORITARIANISM.

IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF AN ECONOMIC POPULARITY OF THE LEFT, AND HOW WOULD THAT BE EXPRESSED WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THE U. S. ?

>> WELL, THERE IS A POPULISM OF THE LEFT.

I MEAN, BERNIE SANDERS WAS THE BEST EXPONENT AND EXPRESSION OF THAT, BUT HE WAS SAYING SOMETHING THAT RESONATED WITH MANY AMERICANS.

AND THAT IS THAT WE'VE GOT TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK ECONOMICALLY FROM BIG CORPORATIONS, FROM WEALTHY PEOPLE THAT ARE ABUSING THEIR WEALTH AND THEIR POWER.

I MEAN, HE WAS HARKENING BACK TO SOMETHING THAT LEWIS BRANDRIES, THE GREAT JURIST, WAS REPEATED TO HAVE SAID IN THE 1970s, WHICH IS AMERICA HAS A CHOICE.

WE CAN EITHER HAVE GREAT WEALTH IN THE HANDS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OR WE CAN HAVE A DEMOCRACY, BUT WE CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

AND BERNIE SANDERS CAME VERY, VERY CLOSE TO GETTING THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION.

NOW, HISTORY WILL NOT KNOW WHETHER HE COULD HAVE BEATEN DONALD TRUMP, WHO WAS ALSO IMPROBABLE.

I REMEMBER, WALTER, I WAS DOING A BOOK IN 2015, SOME RESEARCH FOR A BOOK.

I WENT AROUND MANY PLACES IN THE MIDWEST OF THE SOUTH DOING KIND OF A FOCUS GROUPS, REALLY FREE FLOAT IN FOCUS GROUPS.

AND I REMEMBER ASKING PEOPLE ALL OF THE COUNTRY PARTICULARLY IN THE RUST BELT, IN THE SOUTH, IF YOU HAD TO VOTE TODAY WHO WOULD YOU VOTE FOR FOR YOUR NEXT PRESIDENT?

NOW, THIS WAS 2015 WHEN HILLARY CLINTON WAS THE PUNITIVE NOMINEE FOR THE DEMOCRATS AND JEB BUSH WAS THE PUNE POSITIVE NOMINEE FOR THE REPUBLICANS.

AND I KEPT ON HEARING AGAIN AND AGAIN PEOPLE SAYING, WELL, WE WANT EITHER DONALD TRUMP OR BERNIE SANDERS.

AND I REMEMBER THINKING, WAIT A MINUTE, HOW CAN YOU PUT DONALD TRUMP AND BERNIE SANDERS IN THE SAME SENSTANCE?

BUT THE FACT WAS IN 2015 PEOPLE WHO FELT BULLIED, AND I'M GOING TO USE THAT METAPHOR BECAUSE IT REALLY DOES DESCRIBE THE PEOPLE THAT I MET.

AND THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND STILL DOES.

THEY WANTED SOMEBODY WHO WOULD STOP THE BULLYING.

>> ROBERT REICH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> WELL, THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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