February 28, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND A WARM WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

TENSIONS SIMMER AS THE VOTES ARE COUNTED IN NIGERIA'S CLOSE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

MY CONVERSATION WITH POPULAR NIGERIA BROADCASTER.

THEN HOW AUTOCRACY IS CREEPING UP ON THE 21st CENTURY.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" ROGER COHN JOINS US.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, A NEW DEAL BETWEEN THE U.K. AND EUROPEAN UNION BUT WILL IT STEADY NORTHERN ISLAND'S POLITICS AND HELP RESERVE THE TREASURED PEACE?

I ASK AN EXPERT.

>> TO BE PRESENT IS NO SMALL FIT TO SOMEBODY.

>> HOW TO SERVE A FRIEND IN DESPAIR.

A HEART FELT CONVERSATION BETWEEN HARRY AND JOURNALIST DAVID WHO LOST A LIFELONG FRIEND TO SUICIDE.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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>>> I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

AUTHORITIES ARE CALLING FOR A FRESH ELECTION BEFORE BALLOTS ARE COUNTED.

THEY ARE SAYING SATURDAY'S PRESIDENTIAL VOTE WAS QUOTE IRRETRIEVABLY COMPROMISED.

THESE CONCERNS COME AS NIGERIAN PEOPLE COMPLAIN OF INTIMIDATION, VIOLENCE AND SUPPRESSION.

HEAR SOME REPORTING FROM LARRY ON THE GROUND IN NIGERIA.

>> Reporter: FIGHTING FOR THE RIGHTS TO VOTE IN WHAT COULD BE NIGERIA'S TIGHTEST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION EVER.

THE NIGERIAN ARMY ROLLS INTO A NEIGHBORHOOD IN LEGOS WHERE VOTERS AT TWO UNITS SPENT ALL OF ELECTION DAY WAITING TO COUNT BALLOTS BUT POLITICIANS DID NOT SHOW UP.

THEY RETURNED THE NEXT DAY AND WAITED SEVERAL MORE HOURS, GROWING INPATIENT AS A CHANCE TO VOTE SLOWLY FADED AWAY.

>> NOTHING WORKS IN THIS COUNTRY.

NO SECURITY.

THERE IS NO GOOD SECURITY.

NOTHING WORTH THE EDUCATIONAL AND FOR WHAT?

YOUTH ARE COMING OUT TO VOTE.

AND WE ARE STIGMATIZED AND RATIONALIZED.

IT IS HEARTBREAKING.

>> Reporter: SHARED BY OTHER YOUNG PEOPLE THAT REGISTERED TO VOTE IN RECORD NUMBERS HOPING TO REBOOT A DEEPLY DYSFUNCTIONAL NIGERIA.

>> YOU GET A CLEAR SENSE OF THE FRUSTRATION THERE.

OFFICIALS OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION SAY THEY'RE TALLYING THE RESULTS OF ALL OF THESE POLLING STATIONS IN THESE AREAS AND THEY SAY THAT THEY COUNTED THEM INCLUDING THOSE MISSING POLLING UNITS, THEY'RE SAYING IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL AND THAT THERE WAS VIOLENCE AT THE POLLING STATION.

CNN IN FACT SAW NO SIGNS OF VIOLENCE AT THE UNITS ARE WORKERS DIDN'T SHOW UP.

SO FAR, THE OFFICIAL COUNT SINCE THE RULING PARTY CANDIDATE ACTUALLY LEADS RIGHT NOW NATIONALLY.

BUT A SHOCKING RESULT SAW HIM TO AN OUTSIDER CANDIDATE.

THIS ELECTION IS AFRICA'S LARGEST DEMOCRACY AND OF COURSE THE LARGEST ECONOMY AS WELL IT WILL HAVE AN IMPACT IT BEYOND THE COUNTRY'S BORDERS.

WE WANT A FEEL WHAT IS GOING ON IN NIGERIA.

SHE'S A POPULAR TELEVISION BROADCASTER AND FILM MAKER AND SHE JOINS US NOW.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON WHAT WE CAN SEE HAS BEEN A TOUGH COUPLE DAYS IN NIGERIA.

WHAT WERE YOU HOPING FROM THIS ELECTION AND WHAT DO YOU THINK NIGERIANS ENDED UP WITH?

WE SAW A GLIMPSE OF THE CHAOS OF THE CONFUSION AND THE FACT THINGS ARE STILL SO TENSE.

>> YEAH, SO I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT WERE WE HOPING, YOU KNOW, THE BODY THAT IS CONDUCTING THE ELECTION HAS AN ELECTORAL ACT IN 2022 AND PRETTY MUCH THE ELECTORAL ACT SAYS IT WOULD BE TRANSMITTED AT THE POLLING STATION.

THEY HAD A DEVICE TO ALLOW THEM TO CAPTURE THE RESULTS FROM THE POLLING UNIT AND IT WOULD BE TRANSMITTED AND UPLOADED DIRECTLY ON TO A PLATFORM THAT EVERY SINGLE NIGERIAN WOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE ABLE TO SEE THE RESULTS.

THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

YOU SAW SITUATIONS WHERE OFFICIALS, THE PEOPLE CONDUCTING THE ELECTION AT THE POLLING UNITS REFUSED TO UPLOAD THE RESULTS.

YOU SAW SITUATIONS WHERE THEY SAID THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO, THAT THE DEVICE WAS SLOW AND EVEN MORE SO, THE ACTUAL PORTAL THAT HAS THE RESULTS UP TO NOW, UP TO 50% OF THE POLLING UNITS RESULTS HAVE NOT BEEN UPLOADED SO THE QUESTION I THINK ALL OF US ARE CENTER THAT'S HAPPENING NOW IN THE COUNTING, WHAT ARE YOU GUYS COUNTING?

WHAT RESULTS ARE YOU SHOWING US?

NUMBER TWO, A LOT OF RESULTS BEING UPLOADED ONTO THE DATABASE DO NOT COMPARE WITH THE RESULTS THAT PEOPLE TOOK PICTURES OF AN THEIR PHONE.

I THINK WHAT PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT NIGERIANS DIDN'T JUST VOTE AND LEAD.

THEY STAYED AT THEIR POLLING UNITS TO 1:00, 2:00 A.M., 3:00 A.M. AND COUNTED THOSE RESULTS WITH THE OFFICIALS.

SO WE ALL HAVE PROOF OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED AT OUR POLLING UP ANYTIME AND WE HAVE PICTURES OF IT AND WE'RE SEEING THAT IT'S NOT THE SAME THING THAT THEY'RE TELLING US AT THE POLLING CENTER COALITION CENTER.

IT FEELS LIKE THEY'RE LYING RIGHT TO OUR FACE AND THERE SEEMS TO BE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT.

YOU KNOW, THIS ELECTION IS NOT JUST IMPORTANT.

IT IS MAKE OR BREAK FOR NIGERIA.

>> I CAN HEAR THE EMOTION OBVIOUSLY AND AS YOU POINT OUT, THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE TECHNOLOGY THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO MAKE THINGS MORE TRANSPARENT NOT LESS SO.

I TAKE YOUR POINT.

PEOPLE ARE POSTING RESULTS AND DISCREPANCIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

I SEEN THEM FOR MYSELF.

TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE, YOU VOICED PARTICULAR CONCERN ABOUT LAGOS.

WHAT DID YOU SEE THAT TOLD YOU WE'RE BEING LIED TO?

>> LAGOS STATE A METROPOLITAN CITY, WE KNOW THE ROLL AND POWER THAT SOCIAL MEDIA HAS ESPECIALLY IN LAGOS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TIRED OF THE RULING PARTY.

THEY ARE TELLING US PEOPLE THAT CAME TO VOTE DOESN'T CORRELATE WITH WHAT HAPPENED.

A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING TO POLLING UNITS AND THE POLICE OFFICERS DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

THEY DID NOTHING SO TO US WE'RE ASKING WHY ARE WE NOT BEING ALLOWED TO VOTE?

ARE PEOPLE SO AFRAID OF THAT WILL COME OUT IF NIGERIANS SAY THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO CAST MY VOTE FOR.

AT THE END OF THE DAY.

NIGERIA IS AT THE BREAKING POINT AND FOR EVERY NIGERIAN, YOUNG PEOPLE, THE VOTING POPULATION IS ABOUT 39%, OUR YOUTH AND THESE PEOPLE CAME TO VOTE.

YOU KNOW, THEY CAME OUT TO VOTE.

THE NUMBERS ARE NOT CORRELATING WITH WHAT THEY SAID, NOT ONLY THAT.

THIS AFTERNOON, WE ACTUALLY HAD PDP, WHICH IS ONE OF THE OPPOSITION PARTIES AND THEY'RE NOT -- THEY DIDN'TLAGOS.

THEY SAID THE NUMBERS DON'T CORRELATE WITH THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT CAME.

THEY HAVE DIFFERENT NUMBERS.

WHAT YOU GUYS NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, ALL THE PARTIES MADE SURE THEY WERE DOING THEIR OWN COUNT.

>> WE HEARD FROM NIGERIA'S YOUTH WITH THE EXPRESSIONS YOU'RE SAYING NOW.

WHAT HAPPENS?

THIS ELECTION IS CLEARLY FALLING SHORT.

YOU KNOW THE NIGERIA ELECTORAL COMMISSION SAID NO WAY, WE'RE NOT DOING A REDO HERE.

AS FAR AS WE'RE CONCERNED, THEY REJECED CLAIMS SAYING LOOK, THESE ELECTIONS HAVE BEEN FAIR AND FINE.

WE'LL CONTINUE TO TALLY THE VOTE.

>> LOOKS LIKE WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS THEY WILL CONTINUE TO COUNT AND LOOKS LIKE IT WILL GO TO COURT, WHICH IS REALLY UNFORTUNATE.

TECHNICALLY WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN SPECIFIC SITUATIONS AND THIS IS WHAT THEIR ELECTORAL LAW STATES.

IN SITUATIONS WHERE THERE IS A CANCELLATION, IF THE AMOUNT OF VOTES THAT WERE CANCELLED THERE COULD POSSIBLY AFFECT THE FINAL RESULT, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A RERUN.

A LOT OF THE POLLING UNITS, THE AMOUNT OF VOTES CANCELLED WILL AFFECT THE FINAL RESULT.

WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS TO SEE HOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN A DEMOCRACY, THEY'RE THE ONES THAT DRAFTED THE ELECTORAL BUT THEY SEEM TO NOT BED A HEARING -- ADHERING TO IT.

THEY'RE CHOOSING NOT TO AND THAT ALONE IN ITSELF QUESTIONABLE AND SHOWS THAT IT IS NOT ONLY BEING -- THEY'VE BEEN COMPROMISED.

THEY'RE ALSO NOT TRANSPARENT AND THEY HAVE NOT CONDUCTED A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION.

AND IF THAT'S NOT HAPPENED, THEN TECHNICALLY, WE'LL HAVE ANOTHER REELECTION.

>> YOU KNOW THERE WILL BE BLOW BACK.

NIGERIA IS IN ADOLESCENCE IN TERMS OF A DEMOCRACY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF REGISTERED VOTERS, THAT IS A LARGE TASK.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT TO SAY LOOK, PATIENTS, GIVE US TIME UP HERE.

WE HAVE PICTURES HAVE A PIECE OF PAPER WHERE RESULTS ARE RECORDED AND SOMEONE TOOK A PEN AND CANCELLED THOSE RESULTS.

THAT'S THE ISSUE OF IT.

WE'RE FINDING THE CHAIRMAN IS NOT COMMUICAING WITH US.

A LOT OF TIMES AND THEY HAVE GOT TO THE POINT WHERE WE SAY NO, YOU MUST BE ACCOUNTABLE AND WE EXPECT RESULTS TO BE WHO THEY VOTED FOR.

THERE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY.

IF NOT, THE CHAIRMAN NEEDS TO GO AHEAD AND STEP DOWN AND RESIGN.

IF HE'S UNABLE TO DO HIS DUTIES BASED ON WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO IT.

>> WE SEE PEOPLE IN NIGERIA, THE YOUTH IN PARTICULAR DEMANDING FRANCHISE FROM THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION.

THIS IS BORN OF THE UNEXPECTED RESULTS OF PETER OBY I BELIEVE YOU SUPPORT.

HE'S THE NEXT GENERATION AS IT WERE AND SEEMS LIKE A 70-YEAR-OLD FROM THE PARTY IS IN THE LEAD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL MEAN IF INDEED THERE ISN'T A GENERATIONAL SHIFT AND WHAT IS NIGERIA'S YOUTH LOOKING FOR IN TERMS OF THIS PERHAPS BEING MORE OF A MOVEMENT THAT WILL CONTINUE, NOT JUST FOR THE SELECTION?

>> THE MOVEMENT ALREADY STARTED.

WHEN YOU THINK WHERE THIS CAME FROM.

THIS CAME FROM US FINALLY DEMANDING AND NIGERIA FINALLY INVOLVED IN POLITICS.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE RULED BY SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE MUCH OLDER BUT WE NEED THEM TO UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT WHAT WE NEED.

NIGERIA IS AT A BREAKING POINT.

THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE EXITOTIS.

WE DON'T HAVE GOOD ROADS, WE DON'T HAVE GOOD LIGHT.

WE DON'T HAVE GOOD EDUCATION.

THE AVERAGE NIGERIAN SPENT EIGHT MONTHS AT HOME BECAUSE THE SCHOOLS WERE ON STRIKE AND DIDN'T SEEM LIKE THE GOVERNMENT HAD AN INTEREST.

WE NEED A MIND SET OF SOMEONE THAT'S YOUNG AND SOMEONE THAT'S AGILE AND LISTEN TO THE NIGERIA PEOPLE.

THAT IS WHAT WE NEED.

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE ACCOUNTABLE AND A LOT OF TIMES WHETHER YOU LOOK AT THE PAST LEADERS OF THE PEOPLE RUNNING, THEY DON'T SEEM ACCOUNTABLE, WHICH IS WHY A LOT OF NIGERIAN YOUTH HAVE SAID THIS LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE THAT'S LISTENING TO US AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE HURT.

THE POINT IS FOR US, WHATEVER WAS VOTED ON SATURDAY, WE WANT THOSE RESULTS.

WE DON'T WANT RESULTS THEY'RE DOCTORING.

THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

IF WE KNOW THESE RESULTS ARE FREE AND FAIR, WHOEVER WINS WINS, RIGHT NOW WHAT THEY'RE GIVING US IS NOT WHAT WE VOTED ON SATURDAY.

>> WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE FOR NOW.

WE HEAR YOUR PASSION AND YOU'VE GIVEN US GREAT INSIGHT WHAT IS GOING ON AS WE SEE THE FALLOUT.

THANKS SO MUCH.

APPRECIATE IT.

>>> NOW, WE DON'T HAVE TO REMIND YOU THAT IT'S NOT JUST NIGERIA, ACROSS THE WORLD DEMOCRACIES HAVE BEEN FACING STRESS TESTS IN THE 21st CENTURY, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" EXPLORES THE SEISMIC CHALLENGES IN THE NEW BOOK CALLED "AN AFFIRMING FLAME" WHERE HE EXAMINES A THREAT HE DESCRIBES AS A CREEPING AUTOCRACY.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT HE'S SEEN IN RUSSIA AND CHINA AND YES, HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE BOOK COMPRISES DECADES OF HIS WORK AS A JOURNALIST AND AN OPINION COLUMNIST AND ROGER JOINS ME NOW FROM HERE IN NEW YORK.

CAN YOU THINK OF A BETTER ENTREE TO YOUR -- EVERYTHING THAT YOU TALK ABOUT AND EVERYTHING YOU WRITE ABOUT TO THAT PASSIONATE YOUNG WOMAN FIGHTING FOR HER ELECTORAL FRANCHISE THERE.

YOU'VE BEEN ONE OF THE BEST I HAVE TO SAY AT DISTILLING HISTORY AND CURRENT EVENTS.

ALL OF IT AT TIMES ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST FEW YEARS POINTING TO THE FRAILTY OF OUR INSTITUTIONS LIKE THAT YOUNG WOMAN WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT.

I MEAN, YOU DESCRIBE THIS AS THE AGE OF UNDOING, RIGHT?

THE UNDOING OF WORLD ORDER, OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, PEACE, CLIMATE.

YOU KNOW, I FIND YOUR FRAMING ALL MOST CINEMATIC BUT UNNERVING.

YOU KNOW, HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THIS UNDOING?

>> THANK YOU, PAULA, I THINK LIBERAL ORDER.

MOST OF THE WORLD COME TO SEE THAT, THE PERFECT SYSTEM BUT THE BEST AVAILABLE, BETTER THAN AUTOCRAT OR COMMUIST SOCIETY.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS CONSPICUOUS FAILURES IN AREAS LIKE FAST GROWING INEQUALITY AND ACUTE CULTURAL CONFLICT BETWEEN CITIES AND THE LAND.

MANY DIFFERENT THINGS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE RISE OF AUTOCRAT AND FAR-RIGHT NATIONALIST MOVEMENTS CERTAINLY IN MOSCOW.

CERTAINLY IN BEIJING.

AND ELSEWHERE.

DEMOCRACY AS PRESIDENT BIDEN LIKES TO POINT OUT IS IN A STRUGGLE TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT IT IS THE BEST POLITICAL SYSTEM AVAILABLE AND -- >> YES.

>> THE AUTOCRACY IS STAKING CLAIMS, TOO.

IT'S A VERY COMBUSTIBLE TIME I WOULD SAY, PAULA.

>> COMBUSTIBLE DOESN'T SOUND GOOD.

I WANT TO GET TO THAT AUTOCRACY, WHICH YOU CALL A CREEPING AUTOCRACY.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT THIS SO-CALLED STRONG MAN THEORY THAT IN FACT SEEMS ALLURING TO THOSE WHO LIVE AND WORK IN THRIVING DEMOCRACIES?

>> PAULA, I QUOTE THE POLISH NOBLE PRIZE WINNING POET AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK SAYING IN ONE OF HER POEMS CALLED "HATRED" WHAT DID BROTHERHOOD DRAW CROWDS?

HATRED IS EASY TO INJECT INTO THE HUMAN PSYCHE?

I SAW THIS COVERING THE WAR IN BOSNIA.

NATIONALIST APPEAL.

SCAPEGOATING OTHER PEOPLE AND A LEADER SAYING HE CAN REVIVE PAST GLORY AND SOMEBODY IS TO BLAME FOR THE SITUATION.

IT'S VERY, VERY COMPELLING AND 100,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN BOSNIA AS CHRISTIANE AND I DOCUMENTED AT THE TIME.

NOW WE SEE PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN USING A VISION OF RECONSTITUTING SOMETHING LIKE THE SOVIET EMPIRE BY DENYING EVEN THAT UKRAINE EXISTS AND HE STILL HAS STRONG SUPPORT IN MEDIA.

WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE IS GIVE AND TAKE OF DEMOCRACIES.

DEMOCRACIES CAN CHANGE AND EVOLVE AND THEY'RE MORE FLEXIBLE.

DEMOCRACIES I WOULD SAY ARE SLOW TO ANGER BUT ONCE THEY DO, YOU SHOULD WATCH OUT.

>> YOU RECENTLY WON A PRIZE FOR THE MAKING OF VLADIMIR PUTIN, INCREDIBLY SOBERING AND WHAT YOU CALL HIS 22 YEAR SLIDE FROM STATESMAN TO TYRANT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WE MISSED ABOUT HIM?

HOW DID HE GET THERE?

WHAT WAS HIS DEFINING EVOLUTION?

>> I THINK I INTERVIEWED PRESIDENT PUTIN IN 2003 IN HIS MOSCOW AND AT THE TIME I SAW A MAN WHO SEEMED SOMEWHAT UNDECIDED.

THE PERERSBURG MAN PART OF HIM WAS DRAWN TO THE WEST.

HE WANTED A MORE OPEN ECONOMY.

HE DIDN'T WANT A RETURN TO A STATE CONTROLLED ECONOMY.

AND THEN THERE WAS THE KGB, SFB MAN THAT WANTED TO CONTROL THE MEDIA AND WANTED AN AUTOCRAT TICK SYSTEM, WHICH IS WHAT HIS SYSTEM EVOLVED INTO.

I DON'T THINK IT WAS INEVITABLE WHEN I SAW HIM IT WOULD GO IN THAT DIRECTION.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, PAULA, THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS A PEACE MAGNET AND ESTABLISHED TO PUT AN END TO WAR AFTER TWO WORLD WARS ON THE CONTINENT AND A STRONG THEORY IN PARIS, BERLIN, ELSEWHERE IF YOU ESTABLISH TRADE, COME HEARSE, DEPEN DEN SEE BETWEEN THE COUNTRIES OF EUROPE, WAR WOULD BE BANISHED AND THERE WAS A REFUSAL AFTER MANY YEARS AFTER VLADIMIR PUTIN CONTROLLED AND WON THE END GAME IN SYRIA, CRUSHED ALEPPO EVEN AFTER HE ANNEXED CRIMEA, EVEN AFTER HE CREATED A LITTLE WAR IN THE EAST OF UKRAINE AND DONBAS, THERE WAS AN INABILITY AND BLINDNESS IN EUROPE TO SEE HIM FOR WHAT HE WAS.

A MAN LEADING AN INCREASINGLY MILITARY AND BRUTAL RUSSIA THAT SAW THE MEANS TO ACHIEVE ITS STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES IN MILITARY FORCE.

THAT IS VERY FOREIGN TO THE WAY OF THINKING OF EUROPEAN LEADERS, THEY DO NOT THINK IN TERMS OF OBTAINING THEIR GOALS THROUGH FORCE.

NEWS, AS A RESULT OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND AS A RESULT OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S I THINK BOLD AND COURAGEOUS LEADERSHIP, THERE IS AN AWAKENING.

DEFENSE BUDGET GOES UP AND EUROPEANS REALIZE THERE IS A REAL THREAT TO THEM IN RUSSIA FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT I REMEMBER THERE IS TALK, HOWEVER DISTANT AND HOWEVER EMOTE AND UNLIKELY OF NUCLEAR WAR IN EUROPE.

THIS IS SOMETHING NEW.

>> INCREDIBLY SOBERING.

I CONFESS PEOPLE GOT IT WRONG.

I NEVER ASSUMED VLADIMIR PUTIN WOULD INVADE UKRAINE LIKE HE HAS.

I INTERVIEWED HIM.

WHEN WE LOOK AT WHAT WE GOT WRONG ON, YOU KNOW, I GOT IT WRONG, WHAT THEN ARE WE GETTING WRONG AND I'M GOING TO REALLY MAKE A TURN HERE IN CHINA WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON WITH CHINA AT THIS MOMENT?

SOME PEOPLE HAVE ARGUED AND GOTTEN ALONG WITH CHINA.

YOU MAKE A VERY GOOD CASE IN YOUR WRITING THAT THE PROFOUND IMPACT THAT COVID-19 PANDEMIC HAD, HOW IT'S SHAKEN US TO THE CORE AND YET, WHAT DO WE TAKE FROM ALL OF THAT?

>> WELL, THINK XI JINPING IS A DIFFERENT CHINESE RULER FROM HIS START HE PERPETUATED HIS RULE FROM LIFE.

THERE WAS A TEN-YEAR LIMIT ON CHINESE RULERS.

ONCE YOU HAVE THAT ABSOLUTE POWER, IT BECOMES DANGEROUS.

HE, TOO, LIKE PRESIDENT PUTIN WAS ISOLATED BY COVID.

HE HAS AN EXPANSION VIEW OF CHINESE POLICY, CHINA BY VARIOUS MEANS IS EXPANDING ITS INFLUENCE WHEREVER IT CAN.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA IS CHINA HAS A MAJOR ECONOMY AND RUSSIA HAS AN ECONOMY AND PRETTY SOPHISTICATED ECONOMY, RUSSIA HAS AN ECONOMY BASED ON RAW MATERIALS FOR WHAT IT LOOKS ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE.

CHINA IS A MUCH MORE COMPLEX THREAT I WOULD SAY, PAULA, AND OF COURSE, CHINA IS WATCHING CLOSELY WHAT HAPPENS IN UKRAINE AND HOW TO WHAT DEGREE THE WEST RESISTS PUTIN BECAUSE THERE IS THE QUESTION OF TAIJUAN RIGHT THERE ON THE TABLE.

XI JINPING HAS MENACED TAIJUAN IN VARIOUS WAYS AND OF COURSE, BELIEVES LIKE EVERY CHINESE LEADER THAT THE ISLAND MUST BE REUNITED WITH THE MAINLAND.

WE'VE SEEN WHAT CHINA DID IN HONG KONG CRUSHING THE INDEPENDENCE, WHATEVER INDEPENDENCE AND WHATEVER ELEMENTS OF DEMOCRACY HONG KONG HAD.

I DO THINK THAT THE THREAT FROM CHINA IS VERY PRESENT AND WE HANDED A LOT OF TECHNOLOGY TO CHINA.

WE HANDED AN AWFUL LOT TO CHINA WITHOUT REALLY TRYING TO WEEN OURSELVES TRANSFERRING PRODUCTION TO PLACES LIKE INDIA, MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE STRATEGICALLY INDEPENDENT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FROM CHINA BUT IT'S FAIRLY LATE IN THE DAY.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND AND HOW IT'S AFFECTED YOU OVER THE YEAR.

OBVIOUSLY, YOUR BACKGROUND IS FOREIGN.

YOU WERE JEWISH OF EASTERN EUROPEAN BACKGROUND AND RAISED IN SOUTH AFRICA, I BELIEVE.

A U.S. CITIZEN.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU'VE LIVED THROUGHOUT EUROPE AND STILL WORK THERE.

WHEN YOU REFLECT ON THAT, HOW HAS THAT BACKGROUND REFLECTED YOUR REPORTING.

>> I COME FROM A FAMILY DISPLACED AND PARENTS BORN THERE AND SPENT MY INFANT THERE AND EDUCATED AND GREW UP IN ENGLAND AND LEFT ENGLAND AS A FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT AND BECAME AN AMERICAN 20 YEARS AGO.

YOU KNOW, MOVING LIKE THAT IS LOST OF POSSIBILITY.

MY MOTHER NEVER ADJUSTED TO LIFE IN BRITAIN.

IT'S JOIN ME AND THE REST OF THE EARTH TO BE IN SEVERAL WAR ZONES, REFUGEES AND SOMETHING DEEP INSIDE ME THAT I THINK RECOGNIZES ELEMENTS IN COMMON FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SUFFERED.

I THINK I ALSO HAVING MOVED FAIRLIERLY IN MY LIFE TO FRANCE AND REALIZING I WANTED TO WRITE, EVERYONE HAS SOMETHING THAT MAKES THEM TICK.

I COULD NOT EXIST WITHOUT WRITING.

AND THERE WAS ALWAYS SOMETHING IN ME THAT ICHB INSIDE A SITUATION AND TAKING MENTAL NOTES OR ACTUAL VOTES AND HAS DRIVEN ME AS A WRITER AND JOURNALIST.

>> I WANT TO GET TO A FINAL POINT FOR OUR VIEWERS BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO MISS THIS POINT.

YOU YOURSELF STILL CONSIDER YOURSELF AN OF TO MIST.

>> I WAS TOLD TOMORROW THE SWIMMING POOLS WILL BE RED WITH BLOOD.

BLACK SOUTH AFRICANS, THE VAST MAJORITY WOULD ESCAPE THE TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE OPPRESSION OF APARTHEID AND THE WHITE COMMUNITY INCLUDING MY FAMILY OF SOUTH AFRICA WOULD BE CHASED AWAY.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

WHY?

BECAUSE OF A FORGOTTEN WORD, STATESMENSHIP.

SOMEBODY LIKE MANDELA BUT WHERE DOES VENGEANCE LEAD?

LET'S SET IT ASIDE AND BUILD SOMETHING BETTER.

THAT WAS A BIG PART OF IT.

I TOOK A LINE FROM THE POEM SEPTEMBER 1939 ON THE EVE OF WORLD WAR II AND HE TALKS ABOUT THESE FLICKERING SPOTS OF LIGHT THAT CONSTITUTE AN AFFIRMING FLAME AND I'VE SEEN IN THE DARKEST AND MOST DESPERATE PLACES AS A JOURNALIST, YOU WILL ENCOUNTER FORMS OF HUMANITY THAT ARE UPLIFTING AND WE HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THAT CAPACITY TO IMPROVE OUR WORLD.

>> WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE ON THAT OPTIMISTIC NOTE AND I'M GLAD YOU POINTED OUT THE ENDOWMENT NELSON MANDELA LEFT WITH EVERYONE.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS SO MUCH.

THANK YOU.

>>> THROUGHOUT THE PROGRAM, WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING THE DANGER TO OUR DEMOCRACY BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY WAIVER?

SOMETIMES IT CAN SHAKE A HARD ONE PIECE JUST LOOK AT NORTHERN IRELAND WHERE THE FATE OF ITS DEVOLVED GOVERNMENTMENT IS TIED TO THE SUCCESS OF THE GOOD FRIDAY PEACE AGREEMENT IN ACCORD THAT IS HELD NOW THANKFULLY FOR ALMOST A QUARTER CENTURY.

BREXIT MADE A FRAGILE SITUATION MORE DELICATE OVER THE PAST YEAR, A NEW TRADE DEAL BETWEEN THE U.K. AND E.U.

IS HOPING TO CREATE AT LEAST SOME MODERATE STABILITY.

AND TODAY THE PRIME MINISTER SUNAK IS THERE TO SELL THE DEAL.

JOINING ME IS AMONG THE PROFESSOR OF EUROPEAN POLITIC S AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS AT KINGS COLLEGE LONDON AND DIRECTOR OF U.K.

IN A CHANGING EUROPE AND CHANGING IT IS.

WE WANT TO GET TO THE DEAL FIRST AND FOREMOST.

WHY WAS IT NECESSARY AND COULD IT BE CONSEQUENTIAL FOR SUNAK?

IT NEEDS TO BE CONSEQUENTIAL FOR HIM, IN FACT.

>> WELL, IT WAS NECESSARY BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL DEAL WITH BORIS JOHNSON NEGOTIATED IN 2019 HAD FAILED TO SATISFY THE U.K. WHO BASICALLY DIDN'T IMPLEMENT IT AND THEREFORE FAILED TO SATFY THE E.U.

GETTING INCREASINGLY ANNOYED FOR FAILING TO IMPLEMENT IT.

THERE WAS A STANDOFF BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES AND THIS NEW DEAL, TO THE NEW DEAL IS A WAY TO OPERATIONALIZE WHAT WAS AGREED IN 2019 TO THE SATISFACTION OF BOTH SIDES AND SEEMS TO HAVE DONE SO AND VERY CONSEQUENTIAL FOR THE PEOPLE OF NORTHERN IRELAND FIRST AND FOREMOST.

THEY MIGHT GET THE EXECUTIVE BACK.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT FURTHER.

IT WILL BE EASIER FOR CONSUMERS IN NORTHERN IRELAND TO BUY GOODS FOR GREAT BRITAIN AND TRADERS TO TRADE AND I THINK THIS MOMENT MARKS A RESET MOMENT IN THE U.K.'S RELATIONSHIP WITH EUROPEAN PARTNERS, AS WELL.

THERE IS AN AWFUL LOT GOING ON TIED UP WITH THIS AGREEMENT.

>> WE WILL GET TO SOME OF THOSE POINTS.

FIRST, I WANT TO GO TO BELFAST WHERE SUNAK WAS THERE TODAY SELLING THIS DEAL.

LET'S TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.

>> NORTHERN IRELAND IS IN THE UNBELIEVABLY SPECIAL POSITION, UNIQUE POSITION IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, EUROPEAN CONTINENT IN HAVING PRIVILEGED ACCESS NOT JUST TO THE U.K. HOME MARKET ENORMOUS, SIX FIGURES BUT THE EUROPEAN UNION SINGLE MARKET.

NOBODY ELSE HAS THAT.

NO ONE.

>> CRITICS WILL POUNCE ON THAT AND SAY NO, WE HAD THAT BEFORE IN NORTHERN IRELAND AND BEFORE BREXIT.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE HERE?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I CAN SEE WHAT HE'S DOING.

HE'S TRYING TO SELL THIS DEAL TO THE PEOPLE OF NORTHERN IRELAND ON THE BASIS THAT IT GIVES THEM AS IT DOES A TOTAL UNIQUE POSITION WHERE AS HE SAID ACCESS TO BOTH MARKETS.

THE WAY HE SAID IT AND FREQUENCY WITH WHICH HE SAID IT CAUSED A STIR BACK HOME IN LONDON WHERE THERE ARE A LOT OF TWITTER MEMES OUT THERE TALKING ABOUT THE BENEFIT OF A SINGLE MARKET AND INSURANCE MENTAL.

YOU NEED TO BE CAREFUL DEALING WITH POLITICS AND HEAR WHAT AN AUDIENCE IN LONDON THAT MIGHT INTERPRET IT SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY.

>> PEACE HANGS IN THE BALANCE NONE OF US CAN FORGET.

YOU KNOW, DO YOU EXPECT NORTHERN IRELAND TO APPROVE THIS DEAL AND IF THEY DO, YOU'VE ALREADY SPOKEN ABOUT IT, WHAT CHANGES DO YOU BELIEVE WOULD HAPPEN?

>> I THINK TO BE HONEST THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PREDICT WHAT THE DEMOCRATIC UNION PARTY WILL DO.

AT THE MOMENT, THE SIGNS BY THEIR STANDARDS ARE QUITE POSITIVE BUT THEY'LL WAIT AND READ THE DOCUMENT AND GET LAWYERS TO READ IT.

IT MIGHT BE A WEEK OR MORE BEFORE WE HEAR THE FINAL DECISION ON THE TECH SUNAK BROUGHT BACK.

>> IN YOUR MIND, DID THE E.U.

NECESSARILY MAKE SIGNIFICANT CONCESSIONS HERE KNOWING IT WAS FOR THE GREATER GOOD?

RIGHT?

THEY KNOW AS WELL AS EVERYONE KNOWS, DYSFUNCTION IN NORTHERN IRELAND AND DIMINISHED PRIME MINISTER NOT EXACTLY IN THE E.U.

INTEREST HERE GIVEN WHAT IS AT HAND IN EUROPE.

>> THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF THAT.

BEAR IN MIND, THE EUROPEAN UNION LIKE ANY SERIOUS ECONOMY JEALOUSLY GUARDS THE ECONOMY AND DOESN'T WANT STUFF LEAKING FROM INSIDE SO THEY HAVE BEEN CONSCIOUS TO KNOW THEY DON'T WANT AN ORDER BORDER WITH THE UNITED KINGDOM AND IRELAND BUT I THINK THEY HAVE MADE CONCESSIONS AND SAYS A LOT FOR THE RELATIONSHIP RICHY SUNAK BUILT THEY'RE ABLE TO ALLOW ELEMENTS OF THE U.K. TAX A REGIME TO OPERATE IN NORTHERN IRELAND WHICH THEY WEREN'T HAPPY TO SEE BEFORE HAND AND WILLING TO LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF CHECKS ON GOODS FROM GREAT BRITAIN TO NORTHERN IRELAND BUT TAKING A LOT ON TRUST.

THEY WANT TO SEE THIS RELATIONSHIP WORK AND HAVE THE PROTOCOL THAT THE LAST COUPLE YEARS OF U.K. RELATIONS OVER AND DONE WITH.

>> YOU KNOW, THE U.S.

ROLL HERE WAS QUITE NOTABLE I THINK.

THEY HAD WHAT YOU'D CALL A BACK STAGE PRESENCE AND BIDEN AND HIS IRISH ROOTS ARE WEDDED TO THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT.

HE CALLED THIS DEAL FROM A STATEMENT AN ESSENTIAL STEP IN ENSURING THE HARD EARNED PEACE AND PROGRESS OF THE BELFAST FRIDAY AGREEMENT AND WANTS TO MAKE SURE IT'S PRESERVED AND STRENGTHENED IN HIS WORDS.

I MEAN, HOW MUCH OF A NUDGE WAS THIS, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT A POWER SHARING DEAL AT THIS HOUR IN NORTHERN IRELAND IS STILL ELUSIVE?

>> I THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT.

WE SHOULDN'T GET THIS -- GO MAD ABOUT THIS.

UNDER BORIS JOHNSON AMERICANS MAKING FEELINGS PERFECTLY CLEAR AND THEY HAD LITTLE IMPACT ON HIM.

RICHY SUNAK WANTS TO REBUILD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION.

HIS APPROACH IS DIFFERENT.

ADDED TO THAT IS A CARROT OF A POTENTIAL PRESIDENTIAL VISIT TO MARK THE 25th ANNIVERSARY OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT IN APRIL AND THAT WAS QUITE POWERFUL IN HURRYING THE TWO SIDES ALONG.

BOTH SIDES WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE VISIT IN APRIL AND LOVE TO SEE PRESIDENT BIDEN COME HERE AND LOVE EQUALLY AS MUCH FOR HIM TO ANNOUNCE U.S. INVESTMENTS IN NORTHERN IRELAND.

I THINK THAT WAS IN ANYMORE MINDS.

>> IF THE DEAL IS DONE AND PRESIDENT BIDEN DOES INDEED DECIDE TO VISIT.

WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT BREXIT.

SUNAK WOULD LOVE THIS DEAL TO HAVE IT DONE.

IF YOU'RE IN BRITAIN NOW, DO YOU PUT THIS DEAL IN THE WIN OR LOSS COLUMN, WHETHER DEPENDING ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON BREXIT AND, YOU KNOW, WE DO RETURN TO THE WORDS OF TONY BLAIR, THE FORMER LABOR PRIME MINISTER.

HE SAID BREXIT WOULD ALWAYS BE POINTLESS AND PAINFUL.

DOES THIS DEAL REFUTE THAT OR MAKE HIS POINT?

>> WELL, IT DEPENDS WHAT YOUR PRIORITIES ARE.

IF YOU THINK THAT BEING PART OF THE SYSTEM WHOSE LAWS TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER YOUR LAWS AND HAVING A SYSTEM FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT PEOPLE FROM EUROPE CAN COME HERE AND YOU CAN'T CONTROL IMMIGRATION POLICY AS SYSTEM YOU DON'T WANT, YOU'RE WILLING TO LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION TO REASSERT CONTROL OVER IT.

IT DEPENDS ON YOUR PRIORITIES WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT BREXIT.

AS TO WHAT BREXIT HAS DONE, WHAT I SAY IS IF YOU LIVE NEXT TO A CONTINENTAL SIZE ECONOMY, YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME FRETTING ABOUT IT.

CANADIANS SPEND A LOT OF TIME THINKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

CHINA'S NEIGHBORS SPEND A LOT OF TILE THINKING ABOUT CHINA.

IN THE SAME WAY, THE E.U..EST NEIGHBORS ARE CONDEMNED TO SPEND QUITE A LOT OF THEIR TIME WORRYING ABOUT THE EUROPEAN UNION BECAUSE THE SIZE OF THE ECONOMY MEANS WHAT IT DOES HAS A DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT ON THE CHOICES THEY FACE.

SO THE FORMAL NEGOTIATING PROCESS OF BREXIT MIGHT BE DONE BUT THIS RELATIONSHIP WILL CONTINUE TO HOLD FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE I SUSPECT.

>> SUNAK CERTAINLY SAID HE WANTS THIS TO BE A NEW BEGINNING IN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE E.U.

I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME LEFT BUT DO YOU THINK THAT THE TORY PARTY ITSELF, THOSE BREXIT-TEERS WILL TAKE A POUND OF FLESH OUT OF THIS.

>> I'M NOT SURE TO BE HONEST THERE ARE FAR FEWER.

THEY HAVE DIFFERENT CONCERNS, CHINA, NET ZERO CLIMATE CHANGE.

THERE IS ONLY A FEW OF THEM LEFT AND AT THE MOMENT I LOOKS LIKE SUNAK WILL GET THIS THROUGH HIS PARTY WITH ONLY A MINOR BIT OF GRUMBLING ON THE BACK STAGE.

>> A LOT TO GRUMBLE ABOUT THESE DAYS.

WE'LL WAIT TO SEE IN FACT IF NORTHERN IRELAND DOES IN FACT APPROVE THISYOU.

APPRECIATE IT.

>>> TO A TOPIC THAT'S DIFFICULT BUT IMPORTANT TO DISCUSS.

DAVID BROOKS LOST HIS LIFELONG FRIEND PETER TO SUICIDE THREE YEARS AFTER HE WAS DIAGNOSED WITH CLINICAL DEPRESSION.

HE LEARNED ABOUT PETER'S JOURNEY IN THE LATEST COLUMN HOW DO YOU SERVE A FRIEND IN DESPAIR?

AND JOINS HARRY TO SHARE SOME OF THOSE STORIES.

>> PAULA, THANKS.

DAVID BROOKS, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A COLUMN THAT RESONATED WITH SO MANY "NEW YORK TIMES" READERS.

I THINK IN PART BECAUSE IT WASN'T WHAT YOU USUALLY WRITE.

IT WASN'T ABOUT POLITICS.

IT WASN'T ABOUT IDEOLOGY BUT YOUR FRIEND, PETER AND THE TITLE OF IT IS HOW DO YOU SERVE A FRIEND IN DESPAIR?

FIRST, FOR THE AUDIENCE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE READ THE COLUMN, TELL US ABOUT PETER.

>> PETER AND I MET WHEN WE WERE 11.

WE WENT TO THE SAME SUMMER CAMP IN CONNECTICUT, A CAMP.

WE STARTED AS CAMPERS AND WE WERE THERE FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS TOGETHER AS CAMPERS AND COUNSELORS.

AND WE STAYED FRIENDS FOR LIFE.

THE OLDEST FRIEND I HAD.

I DESCRIBED HIM AS PLAYFUL.

HE WAS THE KIND OF GUY WHO THE STORY I TELL IS HE WAS SKIPPING AROUND OUR LITTLE DINING ROOM THERE.

HE WAS A BIG GUY, PROBABLY ABOUT 6'3", 6'4" AND HE'S SKIPPING AROUND, YOU KNOW, JUST BEING HIS YOU JOYOUS SELF AND HE LANDS FLAT ON HIS BACK AND WE CRACK UP.

HE CRACKS UP.

THAT TO ME IS HIM.

AS HE AGED, HE GOT MORE SERIOUS.

HE DID WELL IN SCHOOL.

JOINED THE NAVY AND BECAME AN EYE SURGEON AND HE WAS -- MY WIFE HAD A PHRASE ABOUT HIM I PUT IN THE PIECE WHICH WAS HE WAS EXTRAORDINARY AND ORDINARY AT THE SAME TIME.

HE WAS MASCULINE THE WAY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BUT UNDER STATED AND GENTLE, A FATHER THE WAY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A FATHER FILLED WITH PLAYFULNESS AND JOY AND PRIDE IN HIS SONS AND HE ALWAYS SAID HE WAS THE LUCKIEST MAN IN HIS MARRIAGE BECAUSE THE PERSON HE WANTED TO BE TALKING TO EVERY NIGHT WAS SITTING ACROSS FROM HIM AT THE DINING ROOM TABLE.

HE HAD A RICH AND BLESSED LIFE.

>> YOU DESCRIBE A CHANGE IN THE SPRING OF 2019.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> YEAH, WE WENT BACK TO CAMP TO HANG OUT THERE AND IT WAS IN JUNE OF 2019.

AND MY WIFE NOTICED SOMETHING IMMEDIATELY IN HIM THAT HIS ASSET, HIS EMOTIONAL STATE HAD GONE FLAT AND THERE WAS A FLATNESS IN HIS VOICE.

AND THERE WAS A CERTAIN THING WE DID EVERY TIME, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS, HARRY, BUT I PLAY BASKETBALL AND SO OUR FAVORITE THING TO DO IS PLAY BASKETBALL AND THEN GO RUN AND JUMP IN THE LAKE BY THERE AND GO SWIMMING.

AND HE WAS DOING THE THING HE LOVED TO DO MOST IN THE WORLD AND HE STILL WASN'T ENJOYING IT.

SO HE PULLED US ASIDE AT THE END OF THE WEEKEND AND SAID THERE IS SOMETHING A MISS AND SOMETHING DIFFERENT GOING ON WITH ME.

HE ASKED FOR OUR FRIENDSHIP AND SUPPORT, WHICH WAS EASY TO GIVE.

>> SO HE WAS CONSCIOUS THERE WAS A CHANGE IN HOW HE WAS PERCEIVING THE WORLD.

WHAT STEPS WAS HE TAKING TO FIGURE IT OUT?

>> HE WAS A DOCTOR.

SO HE WAS EARLY ON DIAGNOSED WITH CLINICAL DEPRESSION.

AND HE OF COURSE SAW -- I SAID THERE WERE ALMOST TWO STINTS DURING THE THREE YEARS HE SUFFERED FROM DEPRESSION.

THE FIRST PETE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS SUFFERING AND THE SECOND PETE WAS STANDING BACK AND OBSERVING HIMSELF AND JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT AND THEY WENT THROUGH EVERY POSSIBLE TREATMENT THEY COULD THINK OF.

AND I THINK THAT THE TOUR THROUGH THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WAS FILLED WITH CHOICES AND SEVERE AND BITTER DISAPPOINTMENTS WHEN SOMETHING WOULDN'T WORK.

AND HIS WIFE JEN AND I HAVE SPOKEN OFTEN ABOUT THIS.

THAT SHE -- THEY BOTH CAME TO REALIZE THAT THE MENTAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS HORRIBLY SILOED AND IN HER CASE SHE HAD CANCER AND THEY HAVE THE TUMOR BOARD A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT DOCTORS BRINGING DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON ONE CASE BUT IN MENTAL HEALTH, AT LEAST IN MANY PLACES, YOU TRY ONE TREATMENT WITH ONE DOCTOR AND BUILD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THAT DOCTOR AND IF THE TREATMENT DOESN'T WORK, YOU'RE GONE AND OFF TO THE NEXT DOCTOR AND SO IT'S JUST ONE SILO AFTER ANOTHER.

AND SO HE WAS NOT SOMEONE WHO WAS GOING UNTREATED.

HE WAS SOMEONE WHO TRIED EVERYTHING.

THREE YEARS WITH THIS BRUTAL ILLNESS, THESE LYING VOICES, THESE OBSESSIVE COMPULTION AND IT'S AMAZING HOW LITTLE RESEARCH MONEY WE'RE DEVOTING TO IT.

IT'S AN EPIDEMIC.

>> PART OF WHAT IS INTRIGUING ABOUT YOUR FRIEND TO A LOT OF READERS IS THAT THIS IS A PERSON AND WE SAY THIS OFTEN AFTER SUICIDE SEEMED TO HAVE IT ALL.

HE HAD A SUPPORT SYSTEM.

HE HAD PEOPLE THAT HE LOVED.

WONDERFUL FAMILY.

HE WAS AWARE THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING AND YET, AT THE END HE TOOK HIS OWN LIFE AND WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU ABOUT HOW DEEP DEPRESSION IS?

>> YEAH, IT'S JUST A MONSTER OF A DISEASE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT -- STEVEN FRY HAS A SAYING, THE ACTOR THAT IF YOU'RE A FRIEND WITH DEPRESSION, DON'T ASK WHY AND JUST WALK WITH THEM AND BE THERE AT THE OTHER END.

I THINK -- I'VE LEARNED A LOT FROM THAT THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO ASK WHY.

I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, PETE HAD THEORIES, I'M NOT SURE THERE IS A WHY.

IN MY OWN LITTLE WAY, I LEARNED A LOT ABOUT THE DISEASE DURING THOSE THREE YEARS.

AND THE FIRST THING I LEARNED WAS THAT DON'T THINK YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT BY EXTRAPOLATING BY YOUR OWN PERIODS OF SADNESS IF YOU NEVER SUFFERED YOUR OWN DEPRESSION.

IT'S NOT SADNESS BUT AN ALTERED STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

AND I LEARNED THAT, YOU KNOW, DON'T TRY TO FIX THE OTHER PERSON.

EARLY IN THOSE THREE YEARS TALKING BY PHONE MOSTLY DURING COVID, I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU USED TO LOVE GOING TO VIETNAM AND DOING SURGERY AND, YOU KNOW, CURING PEOPLE.

DO THAT.

GO DO THAT.

THAT WAS MY SUGGESTION.

I SINCE LEARNED IF YOU TRY TO GIVE PEOPLE SUGGESTIONS OUT TO GET OUT OF IT, REALLY YOU'RE TELLING THEM YOU DON'T GET IT AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.

IT NOT IDEAS WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH BUT MOTIVATIONAL DESIRE AND LOSS OF ALL PLEASURE.

SECOND THING I WOULD DO IS LIKE SAY YOU GOT A GREAT -- JUST -- WE JUST SAID YOU HAVE IT ALL.

YOU'RE SUCCESSFUL AND VERY ACCOMPLISHED SURGEON.

YOU'VE GOT WONDERFUL KIDS.

A WONDERFUL MARRIAGE.

THINK HOW GOOD YOUR LIFE IS.

THAT'S ALSO NOT THE RIGHT THING TO SAY.

IF YOU TELL PEOPLE THEY SHOULD BE ENJOYING, THEY FEEL BAD ABOUT NOT ENJOYING THINGS THAT ARE ENJOYABLE.

SO I LEARNED THAT'S JUST NOT HOW TO DO IT.

AND I'LL JUST FINALLY THE ONE THING PETE FOUND SOLIS IN, I SENT A VIDEO THAT WAS A SERMON GIVEN BY MY COLLEAGUE MICHAEL WHO SUFFERED FROM DEPRESSION AND GAVE A SERMON ABOUT IT AND HE SAID DEPRESSION IS A MALFUNCTION IN THE APPARATUS WE USE TO PERCEIVE REALITY AND THAT IS THE PERSON WHO IS SUFFERING DEPRESSION ISN'T SEEING REALITY FRANKLY THE WAY THEY SHOULD AND MIKE SAID HE HAD THESE OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE VOICES IN HIS HEAD LYING TO HIM THAT YOU'RE NOT WORTH ANYTHING.

NO ONE WILL MISS YOU.

AND I THINK WHEN I SENT PETE THAT VIDEO, PETE SAID YES, THAT'S WHAT IT'S LIKE.

SO I REALLY GOT AN APPRECIATION FOR THE MAGNITUDE OF THE DISEASE.

>> I LOST A FRIEND TO THIS A FEW YEARS AGO AND I STILL STRUGGLE WITH KIND OF MIX OF EMOTIONS THAT I FEEL ABOUT IT AND ON ONE HAND, OBVIOUSLY, I'M INCREDIBLY SAD THAT I LOST THIS BUDDY OF MINE WHO I LOVED FOR A LONG TIME AND WHO I WON'T GET TO GROW OLD WITH AND THEN AT THE SAME TIME THERE ARE THESE LITTLE PANGS OF ANGER LIKE WHY DID YOU DO THIS?

WHY DID YOU LEAVE YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTERS?

WHY DID YOU LEAVE ME AND OUR FRIENDS?

IT'S A VERY COMPLEX WEB OF EMOTIONS THAT THIS TRIGGERS FOR SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND YOU IN A WAY THAT IF YOU BUSTED A LEG, IT WOULDN'T.

IT JUST HORRIFYING TO THOSE LEFT BEHIND.

>> THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE AN ILLUSION IT IS FREE WILL, THAT WE HAVE AN ILLUSION THAT PERSON'S MIND IS ON OUR SIDE.

AND THAT PERSON'S MIND IS ON HIS SIDE.

AND SO WE ASSUME OUR MIND IS ON OUR SIDE AND SO WE THINK WELL, HOW DID YOU DO THIS?

I THINK PETE -- I THINK HE NEVER TOLD ME THIS BUT IN HIS FINAL DAYS, HE PERSUADED HIMSELF HE WAS DOING A FAVOR FOR HIS FAMILY, RELIEVING THEM THE BURDEN AND MAYBE YOUR FRIEND HAD THE SAME THOUGHTS AND ALL I CAN TELL YOU IF ANYBODY HAS THAT THOUGHT GO THROUGH THEIR MIND, HAVING LIVED THROUGH THE WRECKAGE OF WHAT HAPPENED, THAT THOUGHT IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

AND BUT, YOU KNOW, SO I THINK WE LEARNED TO TRY TO OVERCOME THAT THOUGHT THAT YOU JUST MADE A BIG MISTAKE BECAUSE THE MACHINE WITH WHICH THEY MADE THE MISTAKE WAS SEVERELY MALFUNCTIONING AND THE OTHER THING, I'D SAY TWO OTHER QUICK THINGS, HARRY.

THE FIRST THING I LEARNED I SHOULD HAVE DONE OTHER THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

I SHOULD HAVE SENT HIM MORE POSTCARDS, TEXTS SAYING I'M THINKING ABOUT YOU.

I FEEL REGRET ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING ANY OF US COULD HAVE DONE TO ALTER WHAT HAPPENED.

AND SO THAT IS -- THAT'S I THINK SOMETHING THOSE OF US STILL HERE SHOULD GIVE OURSELVES, YOU KNOW, SOME FORGIVENESS ABOUT THAT THIS DISEASE -- IF IT WAS BIGGER THAN MY FRIEND PETE OR YOUR FRIEND WILL BE BIGGER THAN US.

>> ACCORDING TO THE NIH BETWEEN 2000 AND 2020 ONE IN FIVE AMERICANS WERE AFFECTED BY MENTAL ILLNESS AND THE CDC PUT OUT A YOUTH RISK BEHAVIOR SURVEY THIS MONTH, 60% OF FEMALE STUDENTS EXPERIENCED PERSISTENT FEELINGS OF SADNESS OR HOPELESSNESS DURING THE PAST YEAR, NEARLY 25% MADE A SUICIDE PLAN.

THAT'S ONE IN FOUR YOUNG GIRLS.

THIS IS JUST STAGGERING THAT IF IT WAS ANYTHING ELSE THAT WAS AFFECTING THIS LARGE OF A PROPORTION OF OUR POPULATION, YOU'D THINK WE'D MOVE HEAVEN AND EARTH TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> YEAH, AND THE RESEARCH AND DEPRESSION IS STILL SO MUCH SMALLER THAN CANCER AND OTHER THINGS OBVIOUSLY WE SHOULD BE RESEARCHING.

I THINK IN TWO LEVELS, FIRST ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL WITH MY FRIEND OR YOUR FRIEND, THERE IS NO GREAT TREND THAT EXPLAINS IT.

IT WAS PARTICULAR TO THAT PERSON.

BUT I THINK SOCIETY, SOCIETY LEVEL I THINK WE CAN POINT TO SOME TRENDS.

FOR TEENAGE GIRLS, IT'S SOCIAL MEDIA.

SOCIAL MEDIA PARTICIPATION IS AT THE HIGHEST AND LOOK AT THE TRENDS WHEN IT REALLY TURNED AND SPIKED AROUND 2012, 2013 AND THAT'S WHEN THE SMART PHONE HAPPENED.

IT DOESN'T PLAY A ROLE FOR PEOPLE SUFFERING SUICIDE OF OLDER MEN PARTICULARLY BUT I'D POINT TO TWO THINGS, ONE, THE LOSE OF COMMUNITY.

THE BOWLING ALONE.

THE IDEA PEOPLE USED TO BE SHROUDED IN THIS WEB OF THICK RELATIONSHIPS AND A BOWLING LEAGUE A CHURCH, SYNAGOGUE, MOSS, PEOPLE ARE NOT ENSHROUDED IN THE WEBS OF RICH RELATIONSHIP THE WAY THEY USED TO AND SECOND AND THIS WILL BE A LITTLE MORE CONTROVERSIAL BUT MY THEORY, WHICH IS THAT FOR MANY ACCEPT -- CENTURIES IN OUR DIFFERENT CULTURES, WE TAUGHT EACH OTHER HOW TO BE CONSIDERED TO EACH OTHER IN THE DAILY RITUALS OF LIFE.

THERE WAS A MORAL TRIBULATION HOW TO BE KIND AND DO HARD SOCIAL SKILLS AND HAVE A HARD CONVERSATION AND DISAGREE WITH RESPECT, HOW TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS AND HOW TO SIT WITH SOMEONE SUFFERING AND HAVE A GOOD CONSERVATION.

FOR SOME REASON IN OUR CULTURE, WE DON'T TEACH THOSE SKILLS AND I FEEL WE JUST DROPPED THE BALL IN TEACHING ELOQUENT MENTAL SOCIAL SKILLS OF TENDING TO EACH OTHER.

>> WHAT IS IT YOU THINK THAT EXPLAINS THE KIND OF DISORIENTATION FOR US LEFT BEHIND?

YOU WRITE ELOQUENTLY THAT IT'S AS IF WE WENT TO MONTANA AND SUDDENLY THE MOUNTAINS DISAPPEARED.

THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO LOOK AT IT.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS THAT IT IS SO MONUMENTAL TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, PETE IS BASICALLY A LIFELONG FRIEND I ALWAYS ASSUMED WOULD BE THERE AND TO HAVE HIM NOT THERE IS DISORIENTED.

WHEN THE DEATH OF A FRIEND IS DIFFERENT AND UNUSUAL AND I FOUND MORE SERIOUS THAN ANTICIPATED AND YOU AND ME AND MARK SHIELDS WOULD GET-TOGETHERS TO TALK ABOUT SPORTS.

>> YEAH.

>> AND SO MARK AND I WERE PARTNERS ON "THE NEWS HOUR" FOR 20 YEARS AND HE DIED LAST YEAR AND JUST LIKE THAT GUY HAS JUST BEEN AROUND AND HE'S BEEN WOVEN INTO YOUR LIFE AND MARK ALSO DIED.

THOSE THREE LOSES WERE -- LOSSES FOR ME WERE GRIEF INTO ONE'S FRIENDS AND I LEARNED WHEN YOU SUFFER GRIEF, IT BASICALLY UPSETS ALL THE MENTAL MODELS OF REALITY THEY HAVE IN YOU.

WHAT ONE EXPERT CALLED YOUR ASSUMPTION WORLD, THE ASSUMPTIONS YOU MAKE AND THOSE MODELS ARE DESTROYED AND YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS TO MAKE A NEW SET OF MODELS.

NEW SET OF ASSUMPTIONS WHAT IT'S LIKE AND THAT'S A PROCESS OF GRIEF THAT'S UNCONSCIOUS AND GOES AT ITS OWN PACE AND FILLED WITH REPUTATIONS AND PAINFUL MEMORIES AND PAINFUL MEMORIES AND UNPREDICTABLE AND THERE IS NO SHORTCUT FOR THAT PROMISE.

>> YOUR ARTICLE, YOUR TITLE HOW DO YOU SERVE A FRIEND IN DESPAIR?

IS YOUR TIP HOW WE CAN SERVE PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES WE FIND IN THESE SITUATIONS?

>> I THINK IN ANY ENCOUNTER WITH SOMEONE WHO IS SUFFERING, THEY'RE LOOKING TO YOU TO ANSWER A FEW BASIC QUESTIONS.

DO I MATTER TO YOU?

AM I A PRIORITY FOR YOU?

ARE YOU STILL THERE?

WILL YOU LEAVE ME?

THOSE ARE THE ONLY QUESTIONS YOU CAN ANSWER.

YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS HOW DO I GET OUT OF THIS?

YOU CAN ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTION AM I A PRIORITY FOR YOU?

WILL YOU WALK WITH ME?

I THINK THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS RIDE IT OUT AND TOWARDS THE END OF THE PROCESS, I WASN'T TRYING TO DO MUCH BUT BE PRESENT OF THE NORMAL FRIEND WE HAD AND HOPING HE WOULD BE ABLE TO BE PRESENT AND BE THE NORMAL FRIEND HE WAS.

IN SOME SENSE, IT'S A SCALING DOWN OF EXPECTATIONS BUT TO BE PRESENT IS NO SMALL THING TO SOMEBODY AND THEN I HAD ANOTHER FRIEND THAT WAS A MUTUAL FRIEND OF MINE THAT SAID, YOU KNOW, GIVE HIS SPOUSE AND PRIMARY CARETAKERS TIME OFF.

GIVE THEM TIME OFF.

THAT'S SOMETHING I WISH I DID, COVID HURT THAT BUT I THINK THOSE WERE ALSO WISE WORDS.

>> COLUMNIST FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES", DAVID BROOKS, THANKS FOR THE COLUMN AND WRITING THIS AND MY CONDOLENCES TO PETE'S FAMILY AND YOU AND THE REST OF PETE'S FRIENDS FOR THEIR LOSE.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN AND GOOD TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT PETE.

>> A WORTHY CONVERSATION THERE.

IF YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW IS IN NEED OF HELP IN THE UNITED STATES, YOU CAN CALL OR TEXT 988 TO REACH THE SUICIDE AND CRISIS LIFELINE.

IT PROVIDES CONFIDENTIAL SUPPORT AND FOR ANYONE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, A WORLDWIDE DIRECTORY OF RESOURCES AND INTERNATIONAL HOT LINES IS PROVIDED BY THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR SUICIDE PREVENTION US ALSO TURN TO THE GLOBAL ORGANIZATION DEFENDERS.

>> FINALLY BEFORE WE LEAVE YOU, NATURE'S OWN LIGHT SHOW AS THE NORTHERN LIGHTS ELIMINATED THE SKY, SHIMMERING GREENS AND PURPLE AS THE GLOW ENVELOPED THE NIGHT.

THE DAZZLING SPECTACLE IS CAUSED BY THE ACTIVITY OF THE SURFACE OF THE SUN.

FOR A A LAN -- MILLENNIAL IT HAS REALLY CAUGHT OUR EYE.

EVERYONE WANTS TO CATCH A GLIMPSE.

THAT DOES IT FOR US TONIGHT F YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.