February 23, 2023

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" FROM THE UKRAINIAN CAPITAL KYIV.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

UKRAINE BOOSTS ITS SECURITY AND WE GET A LOOK INSIDE THE BATTERED TOWN OF VUHLEDAR ON THE FRONT LINES.

PLUS, THE DIRE SITUATION FACING VICTIMS OF THIS WAR.

DENISE BROWN, THE U.N.'S HUMANITARIAN COORDINATOR, JOINS ME HERE IN KYIV.

AND AS NATO YET AGAIN PLEDGES SUPPORT, I SPEAK TO THE U.S.

UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE VICTORIA NULAND.

THEN -- >> Translator: THE HARDEST PART IS WHEN YOU DROP THEM OFF, HE SAYS, WHEN THERE ARE RELATIVES PRESENT TO LOOK THEM IN THE EYE.

>> BRINGING UKRAINE'S FALLEN SOLDIERS BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES.

AND -- >> CHINA HAS I THINK CONSISTENTLY BEEN PLAYING A REALLY DIFFICULT STRATEGIC GAME HERE.

>> SO WHAT IS CHINA'S NEXT MOVE?

WE GET ANALYSIS AFTER ITS TOP DIPLOMAT VISITS MOSCOW.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN KYIV, WHERE EXTRA SECURITY MEASURES ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED ON THE EVE OF THE ANNIVERSARY OF RUSSIA'S FULL-SCALE INVASION.

THERE ARE FEARS THAT PUTIN COULD LAUNCH A FRESH WAVE OF ATTACKS.

BUT OVER THIS YEAR PEOPLE HAVE BECOME HARDENED TO THIS THREAT IS AND INCREASINGLY THEY ARE OPTIMISTIC THAT THEY WILL MANAGE TO RESIST.

RIGHT NOW THE SITUATION IS WORSE IN CITIES, TOWNS AND VILLAGES ON THE EASTERN FRONT, LIKE IN BAKHMUT AND THE TOWN OF VUHLEDAR.

CNN HAS GAINED EXCLUSIVE ACCESS AND CORRESPONDENT ALEX MARQUARDT IS THERE.

>> Reporter: THIS FIGHT FOR VUHLEDAR RIGHT NOW IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT AND DIFFICULT IN THE COUNTRY.

WHILE THE FIGHT FOR BAKHMUT IS LARGELY SYMBOLIC, THIS IS A VERY STRATEGIC FIGHT FOR BOTH SIDES.

VUHLEDAR IS UNIQUE IN THAT IT SITS AT THE INTERSECTION OF THE TWO MAIN ACTIVE FRONTS IN UKRAINE, THE SOUTHERN AND THE EASTERN FRONT.

THAT IS WHY RUSSIA WANTS TO TRY TO PUSH THROUGH HERE, TO LAUNCH AN OFFENSIVE INTO DONBAS.

IT IS BELIEVED THAT THIS IS ONE OF THEIR SHAPING OPERATIONS, THE BEGINNING OF A LARGER OFFENSIVE TO COME IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.

BUT THEY ARE STRUGGLING VERY BADLY RIGHT NOW.

THEY'VE LOST A HUGE AMOUNT OF MEN AND ARMORED VEHICLES AS THEY TRY TO CROSS OPEN FIELDS INCLUDING MINEFIELDS WHERE THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO INFLICT A HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE ON THEIR TROOPS.

AT THE SAME TIME THE RUSSIANS ARE ABSOLUTELY PUMMELING THIS TOWN.

YOU CAN SEE ALL AROUND ME THESE ARE SOVIET-ERA APARTMENT BLOCS, NOW LARGELY EMPTY.

THE RESIDENTS HAVE FLED, AND ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE DESTROYED IN VARYING DEGREES.

ALL OF THE WINDOWS HAVE BEEN BLOWN OUT.

CRATERS HERE IN THE GROUND WHERE CHILDREN USED TO PLAY.

UKRAINIANS HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THE HIGHER GROUND HERE AND THESE BUILDINGS TO USE IN THE FIGHTING.

BUT AS WITH SO MANY OF THE BATTLES HERE IN EASTERN UKRAINE IT IS A FIGHT OF ATTRITION.

WHO CAN HOLD OUT THE LONGEST?

THE UK YAIN SIDE SAYING THEY NEED MORE AMMUNITION TO BE ABLE TO KEEP THE RUSSIANS AT BAY, TO KEEP THEM FROM ADVANCING.

>> THE SITUATION IS REALLY URGENT, AS ALEX MARQUARDT REPORTED THERE FROM VUHLEDAR IN EASTERN UKRAINE.

THIS COUNTRY HAS NOW ENDURED 12 MONTHS OF VIOLENCE, LOSS, TRAGEDY AND FEAR.

ALL ASPECTS OF PEOPLE'S LIVES HAVE BEEN IMPACTED.

40% OF UKRAINIANS ARE IN NEED OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

MILLIONS ARE DISPLACED.

AND DISTRIBUTION IS DIFFICULT.

DENISE BROWN IS THE U.N.'S HUMANITARIAN COORDINATOR FOR THIS COUNTRY, AND SHE'S JOINING ME RIGHT NOW HERE IN KYIV.

DENISE, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WE'VE SPOKEN TO YOU FAIRLY REGULARLY OVER THE PERIODS AND THE MILESTONES HERE.

BUT WE JUST HAD THAT REPORT FROM THE FRONT LINE.

YOU CAN SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN THE MOST WRETCHED CONDITIONS.

YOU HAVE BEEN TO MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES OVER THERE IN THE EAST AND ON THE FRONT LINES.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS U.N. HUMANITARIAN COORDINATOR?

>> THE FIRST THING I ALWAYS SEE IN THESE COMMUNITIES IS THE ABSOLUTE DESTRUCTION.

HOUSES THAT ARE FLATTENED, FIELDS THAT ARE NOT TENDED TO, A SENSE OF ABANDONMENT.

BUT THE SECOND THING I SEE IS THE PEOPLE WHO STAYED BEHIND.

AND TYPICALLY IT'S ELDERLY PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN THERE, RAISED THERE, MARRIED THERE, AND THEY'RE STAYING IN THEIR HOMES.

AND THE THIRD THING IS THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES, TYPICALLY THE MAYORS WHO ARE THERE TO SUPPORT.

I ALWAYS COME AWAY WITH A MIXTURE OF EMOTIONS.

BUT THE PREVAILING ONE IS THE RESILIENCE OF UKRAINIAN PEOPLE WHO STAY BEHIND IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

>> AND DO THEY STAY BEHIND BECAUSE THEY WANT TO, BECAUSE THEY ARE ELDERLY AND THEY FEEL CONNECTION THERE AND THEY HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, OR IS IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO?

>> WHEN I SPEAK TO THEM, WHEN I ASK THEM THAT VERY QUESTION, THE ANSWER IS INEVITABLY WE WANT TO STAY, THIS IS OUR HOME AND WE'RE NOT GIVING IT UP.

AND I THINK THEY FEAR THAT IF THEY LEAVE THEY WILL NEVER GO BACK.

SO THEY'RE MAKING THAT STAND.

THESE ELDERLY PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LACK OF MOBILITY, WOMEN ALONG WITH CHILDREN.

THEY'RE STAYING THERE.

>> AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE MAYORS AND THE SORT OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES.

WHAT ARE THEY ABLE TO DO FOR THESE PEOPLE, AND HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT THEM?

IF YOU WEREN'T THERE WITH HUMANITARIAN AID, WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE?

>> IT'S A COMBINATION OF FACTORS.

IT'S INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN SYSTEM WITH THE VOLUNTEER SYSTEM.

WE PUT ALL OUR EGGS TOGETHER IN ONE BASKET, IF YOU WILL, AND ARE SUPPLYING THESE AREAS.

THESE MAYORS ARE DETERMINED.

THE WOMAN MAYOR OF KHERSON, THE WOMAN MAYOR I MET IN ORIHIV, THESE ARE WOMEN WHO ARE DETERMINED, WHO AS SOON AS I ARRIVE THEY TAKE CHARGE.

IT'S REALLY TESTAMENT TO THEIR SENSE OF COMMITMENT AND THEIR ABSOLUTE DETERMINATION TO STAY THERE AND SUPPORT THOSE WHO ARE THERE.

>> AND HOW MUCH ARE YOU ABLE TO DISTRIBUTE, HOW MUCH AID CAN YOU GET IN AND ARE THERE TIMES WHEN THE BATTLEFRONT MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE OR DO YOU HAVE CONSTANT ACCESS TO BOTH SIDES IF THERE IS SUCH A THING LET YOU IN TO DELIVER TO THE CIVILIANS?

>> WE HAVE MORE AND MORE ACCESS CLOSE TO THE FRONT LINES.

WE'RE REALLY FOCUSING RIGHT NOW ON THE FRONT LINE.

WHEN WE SPOKE LAST IT WAS THE WINTERIZATION, GETTING THROUGH THE WINTER.

NOW IT'S THE FRONT LINE.

SO THE WAR DOES SLOW US DOWN, OF COURSE.

WE CAN'T GO IN WHEN THE MISSILES ARE FLYING.

BUT WE DO GET INTO THESE LOCATIONS.

WE'RE IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH THE AUTHORITIES.

>> AND IS THERE SUCH A THING AS IN OTHER BATTLE ZONES THAT YOU HAVE TO ALSO GET PERMISSION OR WHATEVER IT IS FROM THE AGGRESSOR AS WELL, OR ARE YOU JUST DEALING WITH THE UKRAINIAN SIDE?

>> IF I CROSS THAT FRONT LINE, THEN I REQUIRE GUARANTEES OF SECURITY SAFETY FROM BOTH COUNTRIES, WHICH I REGULARLY GET FROM UKRAINE BUT UNFORTUNATELY RIGHT NOW I HAVEN'T RECEIVED FROM RUSSIA.

>> SO IT'S DIFFICULT.

I MEAN, IT'S DANGEROUS FOR YOU AND YOUR WORKERS.

>> IT'S DIFFICULT.

BUT RIGHT NOW WE'RE NOT CROSSING THAT FRONT LINE BECAUSE I NEED THAT GUARANTEE OF SECURITY FOR THE TEAM THAT I'M GOING TO SEND ACROSS.

>> SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS YOU DON'T KNOW WITHIN, THEN, THAT ZONE WHERE UKRAINIAN TOWNS AND VILLAGES AND PEOPLE ARE LIVING, YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY'RE GETTING ANY HELP.

>> ON THE OTHER SIDE?

>> YEAH.

>> I DON'T KNOW.

AND I ASSUME THAT THEY ARE NOT.

AND MY ASSUMPTION IS THAT WHAT HAPPENS ON THIS SIDE OF THE LINE THAT I DO SEE IS WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LINE.

>> ONLY OVER HERE YOU CAN PROVIDE HELP.

OVER THERE YOU CAN'T.

>> OVER HERE I CAN PROVIDE HELP.

>> THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

>> YES.

>> ACCORDING TO YOUR STATISTICS, THERE ARE OVER 5 MILLION INTERNALLY DISPLACED UKRAINIANS.

>> YES.

>> AND SOME NEARLY 18 MILLION ACTUALLY NEED HELP.

ARE YOU CATERING TO ALL OF THEM?

>> WE ARE CATERING TO THOSE WE HAVE ACCESS TO IN THE TERRITORIES CONTROLLED BY UKRAINE.

>> SO HOW MANY MAYBE ARE OUT THERE WHO YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO?

>> THERE'S A COUPLE OF MILLION.

THERE'S A COUPLE OF MILLION THAT HE WE REALLY NEED ACCESS TO.

WE NEED URGENTLY TO GET DELIVERIES TO.

AND I REQUEST THAT VERY REGULARLY.

TO HAVE ACCESS.

IT'S HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

IT'S NOT POLITICIZED.

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THIS IS POLITICAL OR IT'S JUST HUMANITARIAN.

I KNOW THAT UKRAINE IS VERY CONCERNED AND INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE NUMBERS WHICH NONE OF US KNOW WHAT THE EXACT NUMBERS ARE OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN ABDUCTED, FORCIBLY DEPORTED, MAYBE PUT INTO ORPHANAGES, MAYBE GIVEN RUSSIAN INSTRUCTION.

WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

DO YOU ALSO NOT KNOW?

>> THIS IS A VERY SENSITIVE ISSUE AND OF GREAT IMPORTANCE TO THE PEOPLE AND GOVERNMENT OF UKRAINE.

THEY WANT TO KNOW THE WELL-BEING OF THOSE CHILDREN.

SO THE UNITED NATIONS AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS HAVE MADE THE COMMITMENT TO WORK WITH BOTH COUNTRIES TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION.

>> AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE'S ANY ANSWER FROM ANY SIDE?

>> THAT WORK IS ONGOING.

>> SEE, BECAUSE WHAT WE'VE OFTEN FOUND IN THESE WARS IS THAT AT LEAST THE ICRC, YOU KNOW, THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS WOULD HAVE ACCESS.

BUT IN THIS CASE IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE CASE.

>> IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CHILDREN WHO ARE ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO RUSSIA, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS WE ARE AWARE OF, WE ARE ENGAGED IN DISCUSSIONS ON THIS ISSUE, AND WE ALSO WOULD LIKE TO DETERMINE THE WELL-BEING OF THOSE CHILDREN.

>> NOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF CHILDREN WHO ARE TARGETS IN THE CIVILIAN POPULATION, AND WHEN WE LAST TALKED YOU WERE, AS YOU SAY, DEALING WITH WINTERIZATION, ALSO THE NATO WAS DEALING WITH WINTERIZING TROOPS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND THEIR CLOTHES AND WHAT THEY NEEDED.

HOW HAS THE WINTER BRNGS AND DID YOUR WORST FEARS COME TRUE?

BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE -- YOU ALL WERE AFRAID THEY MAY BE FREEZING TO DEATH, THERE MAY BE ALL SORTS OF TERRIBLE CALAMITIES, PARTICULARLY WITH THE ATTACK BY RUSSIA ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

IT'S WHAT KEPT ME AWAKE AT NIGHT FOR A LONG TIME.

THE TEMPERATURES WERE RELATIVELY MILD IN KYIV BUT NOT SO IN THE EASTERN PART OF THE COUNTRY WHERE BETWEEN MINUS 10 AND MINUS 15 IN SOME PARTS OF WHERE I WAS IN KHARKIV AND ZAPORIZHZHIA.

SO THERE'S REALLY BEEN A REAL MOBILIZATION OF ASSISTANCE.

THOUSANDS OF GENERATORS, CLOTHES FOR CHILDREN, REPAIR KITS FOR THE HOMES, THE ROOFS AND THE WINDOWS.

INDIVIDUAL HEATING FOR THE HOSPITALS AND THE HEATING POINTS AND SO FORTH.

SO WE MADE A DETERMINED EFFORT TOGETHER BECAUSE WE SAW THE DESTRUCTION OF THE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH IS CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND WE'RE ALMOST THROUGH THE WINTER MONTHS.

>> AND WHAT ARE THOSE PEOPLE IN THE MUCH COLDER PART WHERE THE WAR IS ONGOING IN A REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT WORLD WAR I KIND OF STYLE, WHERE ARE THEY TAKING SHELTER?

HOW DO THEY LIVE?

>> COLLECTIVE POINTS HAVE BEEN SET UP BY THE AUTHORITIES.

WITH SUPPORT FROM THE U.N., FROM THE NGOs, FROM THE LOCAL VOLUNTEERS.

WE'VE COME TOGETHER, PROVIDED THE SUPPORT THAT THOSE PEOPLE REQUIRE.

AND IN PLACES WHERE PEOPLE WOULDN'T LEAVE THEIR HOMES BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T LEAVE THEIR HOMES WE HELPED THEM TO REPAIR THEIR HOMES.

>> WHAT ABOUT HEALTH?

BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN -- AND THIS IS A RUSSIAN TACTIC.

WE SAW IT IN SYRIA.

BOMBING CLINICS, BOMBING HOSPITALS, NOT TO MENTION SCHOOLS AND ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED HERE IN UKRAINE, PARTICULARLY IN THE FREE FIRE ZONE?

>> HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF HOSPITALS AND CLINICS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION REPORTS ON THIS REGULARLY WITH THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

BUT I'VE ALSO SEEN HOSPITALS SET UP NOW IN BUNKERS.

I'VE SEEN A WOMAN DOCTOR IN A COMMUNITY NEAR SOLEDAR WHO THE CLINIC WAS DESTROYED, SHE SET IT UP IN HER HOME WITH THE HELP OF THE ICRC, THE RED CROSS AND THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

SO THEY'RE FINDING SOLUTIONS.

>> YOU MENTION WOMEN, AND OF COURSE WOMEN ARE OFTEN THE MOST VULNERABLE ALONG WITH CHILDREN IN THESE KINDS OF WARS.

AND WE HAVE SEEN THE EVIDENCE OF WHAT TROOPS FROM THE OTHER SIDE HAVE COMMITTED.

THE UNITED STATES HAS ACCUSED RUSSIAN FORCES OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, CERTAINLY IN BUCHA.

AND WE KNOW THAT RAPE AS A WEAPON OF WAR IS BEING USED.

HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO DISCOVER MORE ON THAT, TO TRY TO HELP SOME OF THESE WOMEN?

ARE THEY ANONYMOUS?

ARE THEY COMING FORWARD?

CAN YOU HELP THEM?

>> WE WORK WITH PARTS OF THE U.N. SYSTEM AND THE GOVERNMENT ON THIS ISSUE, CONFLICT-RELATED SEXUAL VIOLENCE, TO SUPPORT THE SURVIVORS.

>> IS IT HAPPENING A LOT?

>> WE HAVE SET UP AT LEAST FOUR AREAS WHERE WOMEN CAN GO TO AND GET THE SUPPORT THAT THEY NEED, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF STIGMA ATTACHED TO THIS.

THERE'S A LOT OF SHAME ATTACHED TO THIS.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE'RE WORKING THROUGH WITH THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES, WITH THE GOVERNMENT, WITH CIVIL SOCIETY SO THAT THE WOMEN WILL GET THE FULL COMPLEMENT OF SUPPORT THAT THEY REQUIRE.

THIS IS A VERY DIFFICULT, VERY PAINFUL EMOTIONAL ISSUE.

>> AND SO MUCH SO THAT IT WOULD POTENTIALLY PREVENT SOME OF THESE WOMEN IN NEED FROM COMING TO EITHER REPORT OR TO GET HELP?

>> FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, IN CONVERSATIONS WITH CIVIL SOCIETY, YES.

NOT ALL WOMEN ARE COMING FORWARD BECAUSE THEY FEEL ASHAMED OF THE VIOLENCE THAT WAS PERPETRATED >> AND WE SAW AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE WAR, I MEAN, THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO FLED AND THE MANY NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES AND OTHERS FURTHER AFIELD WHO HAVE HOUSED AND RECEIVED UKRAINIAN REFUGEES.

WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED OVER THE YEAR?

THE INITIAL EXODUS.

HAVE PEOPLE STARTED COMING BACK?

>> THERE ARE SOME RETURNS.

BUT OF COURSE THAT ALL DEPENDS ON WHERE PEOPLE ARE COMING FROM.

AND COMMUNITIES WHICH HAVE BEEN FLATTENED.

AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT THERE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN FLATTENED.

IT WILL TAKE TIME.

AND TO COME BACK DURING THE WINTER MONTHS WHEN WE KNEW THAT THE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE WAS BEING TARGETED.

LACK OF ELECTRICITY, WATER, HEATING.

WAS NOT AN IDEAL TIME.

BUT WE BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE WILL WANT TO COME HOME.

>> AND WHEN THEY COME HOME, WHAT SORT OF INFRASTRUCTURE IS THERE FOR THEM IN TERMS OF BUSINESS, IN TERMS OF AGRICULTURE?

WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE FIELDS.

YOU KNOW, THIS COUNTRY USED TO I THINK EXPORT TO SOME 400 MILLION PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, THE GRAIN AND OTHER SUCH.

AND NOW IT'S NOT ABLE TO DO THAT.

WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE INSIDE?

THE FOOD AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THE FIELDS HAVE BEEN MINED OR DESTROYED.

SO WE'RE TALKING TO THE GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW.

WITH SOME OF THE U.N.

ACTORS ABOUT DOING AGRICULTURAL DEMINING.

HIGH-PRIORITY AREAS WHICH WE COULD WORK WITH THEM ON DEMINING AND REPLANTING.

OTHERWISE, NO ONE'S GOING TO GO INTO THOSE FIELDS.

SO THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

>> AND AS YOU LOOK FORWARD NOW TO ANOTHER YEAR OF THIS WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES?

I MEAN, HAVE YOU -- I GUESS LEARNED FROM THIS YEAR AND GOT A PATTERN OF RESPONSE IN PLACE THAT CAN BE ENACTED FOR THE NEXT YEAR, OR IS IT ALL RESPONDING TO EMERGENCY BY EMERGENCY?

>> THERE ARE DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS TO THIS SITUATION.

I HESITATE TO SAY CRISIS BECAUSE IT SEEMS SO INAPPROPRIATE.

IT'S NOT SUFFICIENTLY STRONG.

AND WE ARE JUST PREPARED FOR EACH ONE OF THESE NEW SITUATIONS, THE PSYCHOSOCIAL TRAUMA, NEWLY RETAKEN AREAS, THE MINES, THE WINTER, THE ENERGY.

IT'S LIKE WE HAVE TO REINVENT THE RESPONSE VERY REGULARLY.

BUT ONE THING IS FOR SURE, THAT THOSE COMMUNITIES ALONG THE FRONT LINE WILL REMAIN OUR PRIORITY AND GETTING ASSISTANCE AND SUPPORT TO THOSE COMMUNITIES.

>> SO WE TALKED A LITTLE ABOUT THE ATROCITIES THAT HAVE BEEN COMMITTED.

DOES IT COME ACROSS YOUR DESK?

DO YOU DEAL WITH THIS?

CERTAINLY OTHER ASPECTS OF THE U.N.

DOES.

THE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

THE ACCOUNTABILITY PIECE.

THE JUSTICE PIECE.

>> DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE U.N. ARE DEALING WITH THIS, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, THE -- >> WHAT DO PEOPLE SAY TO YOU HERE ON THAT?

>> I HEAR A LOT.

I HEAR A LOT BECAUSE I MOVE A LOT IN THESE COMMUNITIES AND I ALWAYS ASK THE QUESTION ARE YOU WILLING TO TALK, WOULD YOU LIKE TO REPORT THAT, AND ALMOST OVERWHELMINGLY THE ANSWER IS YES, WE WANT TO TALK.

WE WANT TO DOCUMENT IT.

>> AND DO THEY FEEL THAT THEY WILL GET JUSTICE?

>> THE ONES THAT I SPEAK TO, YES.

WE KNOW IT WILL TAKE TIME.

WE KNOW IT WILL TAKE TIME.

BUT IT'S UNDER WAY.

>> AND DO YOU THINK -- I BELIEVE YOU'RE CANADIAN.

>> YES.

>> RIGHT.

YOUR COUNTRY DOES A LOT ON THE HUMANITARIAN FRONT, ACCEPTING A LOT OF REFUGEES ALSO FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

DO YOU THINK THE APPEALS FROM THE U.N.

MEMBER STATES WILL KEEP BEING FILLED?

IN OTHER WORDS, THE APPEALS FOR MONEY, FOR FUNDING, FOR ATTENTION.

DO YOU SEE ANY STRESS ON THAT PIPELINE?

>> I BELIEVE THERE'S A DEEP COMMITMENT BY THE MEMBER STATES, BY THE PRIVATE FOUNDATIONS THAT SUPPORT US TO KEEP THOSE CONTRIBUTIONS COMING.

AS LONG AS THE WAR IS THERE, THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS WILL BE THERE.

>> AND LASTLY, HOW HAS IT AFFECTED YOU?

>> WELL, I'M HERE ALONE.

MY CHILDREN ARE NOT WITH ME.

SO I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ME WHEN THE AIR SIRENS GO OFF LIKE THE UKRAINIAN MOTHERS DO.

>> SPOKEN AS A MOTHER.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU TOO.

>> DENISE BROWN.

THANK YOU.

NOW, ON THE FRONT LINES, ESPECIALLY, IT IS LIKE A WORLD WAR I MEAT GRINDER WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD AND WOUNDED RUSSIANS AND UKRAINIANS.

RECOVERING BODIES IS A GRUESOME TASK, BUT A GROUP OF VOLUNTEERS DRIVES BACK AND FORTH ACROSS THIS COUNTRY TO BRING THE FALLEN HOME FOR BURIAL.

CORRESPONDENT CLARISSA WARD HAS THE STORY OF THAT SOMBER AND ESSENTIAL MISSION.

>> Reporter: ON MOST DAYS OLEG GRIPNOI SETS OUT BEFORE DAWN.

PART OF A VOLUNTEER GROUP CALLED BULLDOZER THAT TRANSPORTS THE REMAINS OF UKRAINE'S FALLEN SOLDIERS BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES.

AT A MORGUE IN THE KYIV SUBURB OF BURISPIL A GROUP OF SERVICEMEN ARE WAITING TO MEET THE BODY OF PRIVATE ALEKSEY LITVINOV.

IT'S SOMBER WORK, AND THE MEN MOVE QUICKLY.

GRIPNOI HANDS OVER THE SOLDIER'S PERSONAL EFFECTS.

"AT THE MOMENT WE HAVE 18 BODIES," HE TELLS US, "AND EACH FAMILY WANTS TO GET THEM AS SOON AS POSSIBLE."

SO WHY DO YOU DO THIS WORK?

"FEW PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO DO THIS WORK FOR FREE," HE SAYS.

"AND NOT EVERYONE HAS THE PSYCHE FOR IT."

THEY ARE LONELY, SEEMINGLY ENDLESS HOURS ON THE ROAD AS HE CRISSCROSSES THE COUNTRY.

EMBLAZONED ACROSS THE SIDE OF HIS TRUCK IS THE NUMBER 200.

A MILITARY TERM FOR THE TRANSPORT OF DEAD BODIES THAT DATES BACK TO SOVIET TIMES.

ON OCCASIONS PROCESSIONS OF PEOPLE LINE UP ON THEIR KNEES TO GREET THE TRUCK, A MARK OF RESPECT FOR THE DEAD.

AT A MORGUE IN THE CITY OF DNIPRO GRIPNOI STOPS TO PICK UP MORE BODIES.

OVERWHELMED BY THE NUMBER OF CASUALTIES, THE HOSPITAL HAS TAKEN TO STORING THEM IN A SHIPPING CONTAINER IN THE PARKING LOT.

AS THE MEN WORK, MOURNING RELATIVES FILE PAST.

UKRAINE DOES NOT RELEASE INFORMATION ON HOW MANY OF ITS SOLDIERS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN ACTION.

BUT GRIPNOI SAYS THAT HIS DAILY LOAD HAS SOARED IN RECENT WEEKS AS FIGHTING HAS RAGED IN EASTERN UKRAINE.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY BODIES YOU HAVE TAKEN BACK TO THEIR HOMETOWNS AT THIS STAGE?

"IN THIS VAN," HE SAYS, "AROUND 1,000."

AND NOW WE'RE AT A STAGE IN THE WAR WHERE MORE AND MORE UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS ARE BEING KILLED.

ARE YOU SEEING THAT?

"AT THE MOMENT YES," HE TELLS US.

"RIGHT NOW IT'S A LARGE AMOUNT."

♪♪ 36 HOURS AFTER GRIPNOI DROPS OFF HIS BODY PRIVATE LITVINOV IS GIVEN A PRIVATE FUNERAL IN BURISPIL.

KILLED IN THE DONBAS REGION FEBRUARY 11th, HIS MOTHER MARINA CAN FINALLY SAY GOOD-BYE TO HER SON.

>> HOW IMPORTANT WAS IT TO YOU TO HAVE HIS BODY RETURNED?

SO YOU COULD GIVE HIM THIS BEAUTIFUL FUNERAL TODAY.

"THE MAIN THING IS TO HAVE HIM AT HOME, NOT LAYING SOMEWHERE EATEN BY BIRDS.

YOU UNDERSTAND HOW AWFUL IT IS WHEN PEOPLE JUST DISAPPEAR," SHE SAYS.

"WE CANNOT CHANGE ANYTHING, BUT THANK GOD HE IS HERE AND I CAN COME TO VISIT HIM."

THIS IS THE REASON GRIPNOI DOES THIS WORK.

BUT SEEING THE FAMILIES' GRIEF IS ALSO INCREDIBLY PAINFUL.

"THE HARDEST PART IS WHEN YOU DROP THEM OFF," HE SAYS, "WHEN THERE ARE RELATIVES PRESENT TO LOOK THEM IN THE EYE.

♪♪ IT'S VERY HARD," HE SAYS.

"THERE'S SO MUCH EMOTION, SO MANY TEARS."

BUT THERE'S NO TIME FOR TEARS TONIGHT.

GRIPNOI STILL HAS MORE BODIES TO DELIVER.

AND ACROSS UKRAINE MANY FAMILIES ARE STILL WAITING.

>> CLARISSA WARD REPORTING THERE, SHOWING EXACTLY WHAT IS AT STAKE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

NOW, SPAIN'S PRIME MINISTER PEDRO SANCHEZ IS THE LATEST WESTERN LEADER TO VISIT KYIV TO SHOW CONTINUED SOLIDARITY WITH THE CAUSE.

NATO CONTINUES TO PLEDGE ITS SUPPORT, LED OF COURSE BY THE UNITED STATES.

VICTORIA NULAND IS THE U.S.

UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS, AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, VICTORIA NULAND.

YOU PROBABLY HEARD SOME OF THAT REPORT, AND YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW FIRSTHAND SINCE YOU'VE BEEN HERE MANY TIMES.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE THINKING AS THIS GRIM MARKER PASSES.

>> CHRISTIANE, THAT PIECE THAT YOU JUST PLAYED WAS HEARTBREAKING BEYOND BELIEF.

AND WHAT I AM THINKING IS THIS IS JUST ALL SO UNNECESSARY AND EVIL.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS ALL ABOUT ONE MAN'S FANTASY OF CONQUEST, VLADIMIR PUTIN'S DECISION THAT UKRAINE OUGHT TO BE HIS RATHER THAN A SOVEREIGN FREE COUNTRY.

AND THE SUFFERING IN UKRAINE IS UNBELIEVABLE, AS YOU ILLUSTRATED THERE.

BUT THEY ARE STANDING TALL.

AND THEY ARE STANDING STRONG.

BECAUSE THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR LAND AND FOR THEIR FUTURE.

AND IT'S EQUALLY TRAGIC FOR RUSSIA BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, PUTIN HAS HAD 20 YEARS TO BUILD HIS OWN COUNTRY AND INSTEAD HE IS PUTTING 200,000 OF RUSSIA'S SONS TO DEATH OR MAIMING IN UKRAINE.

SO IT'S REALLY, REALLY JUST VERY SAD AND VERY TRAGIC.

>> AND THAT IS A HUGE NUMBER.

YOU JUST MENTIONED THE OFFICIAL U.S.

NUMBER FOR RUSSIA'S DEAD AND WOUNDED OF 200,000.

WE DON'T KNOW THE OFFICIAL NUMBERS HERE BUT ACCORDING TO THE U.S. MAYBE 100,000 OR SO.

YOU SAW AND YOU HEARD ABOUT THOSE SOLDIERS WHO HAVE TO BE PICKED UP FROM EVERY BATTLEFIELD AND TAKEN HOME, AND THIS IS A MEAT GRINDER NOW.

SO YOU AND YOUR PRESIDENT AND ALL THE WORLD LEADERS SAY THEY ARE IN UKRAINE'S CORNER FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

BUT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE OF INTERPRETATION.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY BELIEVES THAT IT HAS TO BE SOON.

HE SAID AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE HE NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT SO THAT THIS SUPPORT ENDS THIS YEAR, SO THAT THIS KIND OF CARNAGE DOESN'T GO ON.

AND THE INTERNATIONAL IMPLICATIONS DON'T GO ON.

>> WELL, I THINK WE ALL AGREE WITH THAT, CHRISTIANE, THAT EVERY MONTH THAT GOES BY THIS WAR BRINGS MORE TRAGEDY TO MORE FAMILIES AND MAKES IT HARDER AND HARDER TO GO FORWARD, WHICH IS WHY WHEN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY CAME TO WASHINGTON IN DECEMBER AND RECONFIRMED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN'S TRIP TO UKRAINE THIS WEEK WE ARE COMMITTED WITH OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS TO GIVE UKRAINE WHAT UKRAINE NEEDS TO FIGHT IN THE SPRING AND TRY TO GET BACK MORE OF ITS TERRITORY AND CONVINCE THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION THAT THIS WAR IS NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY AND THAT IT'S TIME TO GO HOME.

>> SO UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, I'M HEARING A KIND OF OUTLINE OF A PLAN, THEN, THAT YOU FEEL THAT YOU CAN GET ENOUGH WEAPONRY OF THE RIGHT TYPE SOON ENOUGH FOR A SUCCESSFUL UKRAINIAN COUNTEROFFENSIVE IN ORDER TO CHANGE THE DYNAMIC ON THE GROUND TO EVENTUALLY GET TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

IS THAT WHAT I'M HEARING?

>> THERE'S A LONG WAY TO GO, CHRISTIANE, AS YOU KNOW.

RUSSIA HAS STARTED ITS OWN COUNTEROFFENSIVE AROUND BAKHMUT, AROUND VUHLEDAR.

THEY ARE NOT HAVING MUCH SUCCESS, AND IT IS A COMPLETE MEAT GRINDER, PARTICULARLY FOR RUSSIAN FORCES.

YOU'VE SEEN NOW THE HEAD OF RUSSIA'S PARAMILITARY WAGNER GROUP COMPLAINING THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH AMMUNITION AND THAT HIS -- HIS SOLDIERS ARE BEING USED AS CANNON MEAT, AS HE LIKES TO PUT IT.

UKRAINE TOO IS PLANNING ITS OWN COUNTEROFFENSIVE AND WE ARE CONSULTING WITH THEM ON WHAT THEY THINK THEY NEED.

BUT THE CURRENT MAP OF PUTIN'S OCCUPATION OF UKRAINE IS NOT STABLE, AND IF THE WAR WERE TO FREEZE HERE PUTIN WOULD JUST BE BACK AGAIN.

HE WOULD REST, HE WOULD REFIT AND HE WOULD RETURN.

SO THE UKRAINIANS NEED TO REGAIN MORE OF THEIR TERRITORY IN ORDER TO BE SAFE AND SECURE IN THE FUTURE AND FOR THIS NOT TO BE HAPPENING AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

>> SO YOU MENTIONED THE WAGNER GROUP AND OTHERS IN RUSSIA COMPLAINING ABOUT SHELL STARVATION, A LACK OF AMMUNITION, BUT YOU WE'VE ALSO HEARD THAT FROM THE ALLIES, NOT EVEN THE UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS, WHO WE DO HEAR IT FROM, BUT FROM THE LEADERS SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

AGAIN, THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF NATO.

ALL THE WORLD LEADERS WHO'VE BEEN IN -- YOU KNOW, WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN IN WARSAW, ET CETERA.

CONCERNED THAT ALL THIS HIGH-TECH THAT YOU'RE SENDING DOESN'T HAVE THE AMMUNITION, AT LEAST NOT ENOUGH AT THE MOMENT, AND NEEDS TO RAMP IT UP.

I MEAN, DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

>> CHRISTIANE, NOBODY ANTICIPATED THAT WE WOULD HAVE A WORLD WAR I TRENCH WARFARE GOING ON IN THE MIDDLE OF EUROPE IN 2022 AND 2023.

SO THE STOCKS OF THIS KIND OF BASIC AMMUNITION ARE BEING GATHERED FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

THE ADVANTAGE UKRAINE HAS IS THAT ITS CAUSE IS JUST, IT'S DEFENDING ITS OWN TERRITORY AGAINST RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, AND MORE THAN 50 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE SEEING THAT AND ARE MAKING THE KINDS OF CONTRIBUTIONS THAT UKRAINE NEEDS, FROM THE MOST BASIC STUFF THAT YOU'VE SEEN ON BATTLEFIELDS FOR 120 YEARS TO THE MORE MODERN EQUIPMENT THAT IS ALSO NEEDED.

THAT'S THE ADVANTAGE UKRAINE HAS WHEREAS RUSSIA IS TALKING TO NORTH KOREA AND HAMAS AND IRAN.

SO WE WILL SEE HOW THINGS GO.

BUT IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT AND GRINDING FIGHT.

YOU'RE NOT WRONG ABOUT THAT.

>> OKAY.

SO LET ME ASK YOU.

RUSSIA'S TALKING TO ALL THOSE PEOPLE YOU SAID, BUT ALSO TO CHINA.

YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM THE SEATING ARRANGEMENT AT THE KREMLIN TODAY, WHERE PRESIDENT PUTIN HAD NO PROBLEM SITTING VERY CLOSE ACROSS THAT TABLE WITH WANG YI, THE HIGH-LEVEL DIPLOMAT, FOREIGN POLICY DIPLOMAT THERE.

AND I KNOW THAT THE UNITED STATES AND OTHERS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT CHINA MIGHT DO.

DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE THAT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAS MADE A DECISION TO SEND LETHAL AID TO RUSSIA?

HAVE ANY PRIVATE COMPANIES STARTED HELPING RUSSIAN COMPANIES OR THE RUSSIAN MILITARY WITH INFORMATION, EQUIPMENT, WHATEVER THEY MIGHT NEED?

>> CHRISTIANE, AS YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WITH THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT INCLUDING AT THE LEVEL OF PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRESIDENT XI JINPING STARTING FROM BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN, BUT INCLUDING THE MEETING IN BALI IN NOVEMBER AND MY BOSS SECRETARY BLINKEN'S MEETING WITH WANG YI IN MUNICH JUST THIS WEEK TO SAY THAT YOU CHINA CLAIM TO BE NEUTRAL IN THIS FIGHT, YOU CLAIM TO SUPPORT U.N. CHARTER PRINCIPLES OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF STATES AND NON-AGGRESSION, SO BEHAVE THAT WAY AND DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THIS FIGHT.

WE HAVE HAD SOME EVIDENCE THAT WE HAVE SHARED OF SOME CHINESE COMPANIES BEGINNING TO DALLY IN THIS POND.

AS YOU MAY KNOW, A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO WE SANCTIONED A CHINESE COMPANY CALLED SPACEITY WHICH WAS PROVIDING GEOLOCATION INFORMATION TO THE WAGNER GROUP, WHICH IS FIGHTING IN BAKHMUT.

THAT SANCTIONING I THINK CAUGHT THE CHINESE BY SURPRISE.

WE ARE ALSO LOOKING HARD NOW AT SANCTIONS EVASION BY CHINESE FIRMS.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU SEE THE BIG PACKAGE OF NEW SANCTIONS THAT WE REALLY OUT TOMORROW YOU'LL SEE US TRYING TO GO AFTER THOSE EVASION TARGETS.

BUT WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT IS THE CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING AT TOP LEVELS WHERE WE'RE MAKING CLEAR THAT THERE WILL BE VERY STRONG CONSEQUENCES IN OUR BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP AND IN CHINA'S GLOBAL REPUTATION IF IT GETS INTO THIS FIGHT.

>> BUT IT IS GETTING INTO THIS FIGHT, AT LEAST DIPLOMATICALLY.

IT'S CHOSEN ON THE EVE OF THIS WAR NOT TO COME HERE BUT TO GO THERE AND SIT CLOSELY AND TALK ABOUT BOTH -- YOU KNOW, THE CRISIS THAT THEY NEED TO EXIT FROM, YOU KNOW, THEIR ETERNAL FRIENDSHIP.

WHY DO YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, STRATEGICALLY, DIPLOMATICALLY, CHINA WOULD TAKE THIS DECISION TO COZY UP TO WHAT'S NOW LOOKS LIKE A LOSING BET BY RUSSIA?

WHY?

>> WELL, I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO THE HEADS OF CHINESE LEADERS.

I DO KNOW THAT PUTIN FOR A VERY LONG TIME HAS BEEN STANDING OUTSIDE XI JINPING'S DOORWAY ASKING HIM FOR MORE, MORE, MORE AND THE CHINESE HAVE LARGELY CHOSEN NOT TO ANSWER THAT CALL.

THEY DO BELIEVE AND CLAIM THAT THEY CAN BE PEACEMAKERS IN THIS AND THAT THEY WILL HAVE SOME IDEAS UNVEILED TOMORROW.

FRANKLY, IF THE CHINESE CAN GET PUTIN TO END THIS WAR AND GO HOME I THINK WE'D ALL BE HAPPY TO GIVE THEM A PEACE PRIZE.

BUT WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE ABOUT.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THEIR INTENTION.

SO I WILL ASK YOU THAT.

BUT ALSO, CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME DETAILS ABOUT THE PACKAGE OF SANCTIONS YOU SAY THAT ARE GOING TO BE UNVEILED TOMORROW?

>> WELL, NOT TO GET TOO FAR AHEAD OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT, I WILL SAY THAT THE PACKAGE WILL CONTINUE TO PUT THE SQUEEZE ON THE RUSSIAN DEFENSE INDUSTRY, ON RUSSIAN HIGH TECHNOLOGY, ON RUSSIAN BANKS THAT ARE EVADING SANCTIONS, AND THERE WILL BE A LARGE NUMBER OF MEASURES THAT ALSO GO AFTER THIRD COUNTRIES THAT WITTINGLY OR UNWITTINGLY ARE BEING USED TO EVADE SANCTIONS.

SO JUST TO GIVE YOUR VIEWERS A SENSE OF RUSSIA'S DESPERATION, THERE ARE THIRD COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD WHERE THE NUMBER OF iPHONES AND COMPUTERS AND WASHING MACHINES THEY ARE SENDING TO RUSSIA HAS GONE UP TENFOLD JUST IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS.

NOT BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS ARE WASHING MORE CLOTHES BUT BECAUSE THEY'RE CANNIBALIZING THESE THINGS FOR THE CHIPS TO GO INTO THEIR WEAPONS THAT SANCTIONS ARE OTHERWISE DENYING THEM.

SO WE NEED TO CLOSE DOWN THAT TRADE, AND YOU WILL SEE ALL OF THOSE MEASURES TOMORROW, INCLUDING AN INCREASE IN EXPORT CONTROLS.

AND WE WILL DO THIS OBVIOUSLY NOT JUST AS THE U.S.

BUT WITH ALL OF OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS.

THERE WILL ALSO BE A LARGE PACKAGE FROM EUROPE, FROM THE UK, FROM CANADA, FROM JAPAN.

>> VICTORIA NULAND, I'VE READ AND HEARD YOU DESCRIBE RUSSIA'S SO-CALLED BIG SPRING OFFENSIVE AS VERY PATHETIC.

AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK IN THAT CASE -- OR WHY YOU THINK PRESIDENT PUTIN IS PLAYING AROUND WITH THE START TREATY.

IS THAT SOME KIND OF BARGAINING CHIP OR IS HE PULLING IT OUT OF HIS POCKET BECAUSE HE'S NOT DOING WELL?

WHERE WILL THAT LEAD, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, JUST TO BE CLEAR, RUSSIA HAS NOT WITHDRAWN FROM THE NEW START TREATY.

IT HAS SUSPENDED IMPLEMENTATION, OR AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT PUTIN ANNOUNCED.

THE TRUTH IS, CHRISTIANE, THAT THE RUSSIANS HAVEN'T BEEN IMPLEMENTING THE PROVISIONS OF THE TREATY SINCE 2020.

NOW, FIRST THERE WAS A COVID EXCUSE.

BUT OVER THE LAST YEAR WE'VE TRIED TO GET RUSSIA BACK TO THE TABLE FOR THE REGULAR ANNUAL CONSULTATIONS ON THE TREATY.

WE HAVE OFFERED INSPECK V SPEXS OF U.S. FACILITIES AND ASKED FOR INSPECTIONS OF RUSSIAN FACILITIES AND THE RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN RUFSZ REFUSING.

PUTIN DOESN'T WANT US TO SEE WHAT'S GOING ON INSIDE RUSSIA.

SO HIS BIG ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MUCH MORE ABOUT FEEDING HIS BASE THAN ABOUT CHANGING THE STATUS QUO.

AND FRANKLY, IT'S DOWNRIGHT IRRESPONSIBLE.

THE U.S. WILL OBVIOUSLY CONTINUE TO IMPLEMENT OUR OBLIGATIONS.

BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA HAVE A GLOBAL RESPOND V RESPONSIBILITY TO THE WORLD TO MAINTAIN SAFE AND SECURE NUCLEAR ARSENALS.

SO ALL OF THIS IS IRRESPONSIBLE, AND IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE HAS NOTHING ELSE TO OFFER HIS PEOPLE AS HIS OWN DIE ON THE BATTLEFIELD IN UKRAINE FOR NOTHING.

AND AS HE CELEBRATES 20 YEARS OF LEADERSHIP THAT HAS ALSO BROUGHT VERY LITTLE TO THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

>> AND FINALLY, YOU ALSO HAVE AN ISSUE AROUND THE WORLD WITH SO MUCH OF THE SO-CALLED GLOBAL SOUTH NOT ON BOARD WITH YOUR NARRATIVE, NOT ON BOARD WITH THE FACT THERE HAS BEEN THIS AGGRESSION AGAINST A COUNTRY THAT DID NOT PROVOKE IT.

AND I KNOW THAT YOU WANT TO GET YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS SO THAT YOU CAN KEEP SUPPORTING UKRAINE WITH MUCH MORE GLOBAL SUPPORT.

HOW DO YOU PLAN TO DO THAT?

IS IT GOING TO BE MORE DIFFICULT IN THE SECOND YEAR OR NOT?

>> CHRISTIANE, I'M NOT SURE I ACCEPT YOUR PREMISE.

TODAY IN THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER RESOLUTION ON THE TABLE THAT MARKS THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY AND CALLS FOR AN END TO THIS WAR, A JUST PEACE, WITHDRAWAL, AND WE EXPECT AN OVERWHELMING VOTE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, COUNTRIES ON EVERY CONTINENT CALLING ON RUSSIA TO GET OUT.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING, ALL OF US, ARE THE GLOBAL IMPACTS THAT THIS WAR IS HAVING, WHETHER IT IS A RESULT OF RUSSIA BLOCKING GRAIN COMING OUT OF UKRAINE'S HARBORS, SO COUNTRIES THAT ARE HEAVILY DEPENDENT IN AFRICA, IN EGYPT, ET CETERA, HAVE HAD TO HAVE GLOBAL HELP TO MEET THEIR FOOD AND FERTILIZER SUPPLY IN YEAR.

THE INCREASE IN ENERGY PRICES, WHICH HAS NOW STABILIZED, INCREASES IN INFLATION.

SO WHAT WE HAVE TRIED TO DO, WE AND OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS, IS AS THESE ISSUES ARISE TRY TO RALLY THE WORLD ALSO TO MEET THE TRICKLE-DOWN NEEDS OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT CENTRAL TO THE CONFLICT BUT ARE NONETHELESS AFFECTED BY IT.

>> VICTORIA NULAND, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AT THIS RATHER GRIM MARKER.

BUT THANKS SO MUCH.

WE DIG DEEPER NOW INTO BEIJING'S LATEST MOVES.

PROFESSOR JESSICA CHEN WEISS WAS A SENIOR ADVISER TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT UNTIL LAST YEAR, AND SHE'S JOINING WALTER ISAACSON TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND JESSICA CHEN WEISS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS SO MUCH.

IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> CHINA'S CHIEF FOREIGN POLICY MINISTER, WANG YI, MET WITH PUTIN THIS WEEK.

WANG YI HAD JUST COME FROM THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, AND HE SAID HE WAS WORKING ON A PEACE PLAN FROM PRESIDENT XI OF CHINA.

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THAT PEACE PLAN?

>> HE WE DON'T KNOW YET.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE.

BUT I'M NOT REALLY EXPECTING ANYTHING DRAMATIC TO BREAK GROUND.

CHINA HAS I THINK CONSISTENTLY PLAYING A VERY DIFFICULT STRATEGIC GAME HERE, BALANCING ON THE ONE HAND WANTING TO HAVE A CLOSE PARTNERSHIP WITH RUSSIA, WHICH XI JINPING SEES AS CHINA'S MOST IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, PARTNER IN RESISTING PERCEIVED U.S. EFFORTS AT CONTAINMENT, AND ON THE OTHER HAND NOT WANTING RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES AND THE EUROPEANS TO GO TOO FAR SOUTH.

I THINK WE'LL SEE HERE IN THE COMING DAYS FURTHER ELABORATION OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT'S EFFORTS TO CONTINUE TO MANAGE THIS DIFFICULT STRADDLE, IF YOU WILL.

>> BUT ISN'T IT IN CHINA'S DEEP NATIONAL INTEREST TO HAVE THIS WAR IN UKRAINE SETTLED?

>> I THINK ON THE ONE HAND, YOU KNOW, THE CONTINUATION OF THE WAR PUTS CHINA IN A DIFFICULT POSITION.

BUT THEY ALSO DON'T SEE A WHOLE LOT OF, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL UPSIDE IN PUSHING PUTIN TO END THIS.

AND SO WITH THE TWO SIDES PRETTY DUG IN, PVTH PERHAPS GEARING UP FOR A FURTHER ESCALATION, CHINA WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS SIMMER DOWN BUT NOT NECESSARILY BE SOMETHING THEY FEEL LIKE THEY WANT TO BE ON THE FRONT LINES OF MANAGING.

BUT WE'LL SEE.

THIS IS A BIGGER STEP THAN THEY'VE TAKEN TO DATE AND REFLECTS THE INTEREST ON THE EUROPEAN SIDE TO HE SEE CHINA PLAY A MORE ACTIVE ROLE IN TRYING TO MEDIATE PERHAPS.

BUT THIS IS FROM THE LONGER PERSPECTIVE, I THINK CHINA'S TAKEN HERE REALLY WITH AN EYE TOWARD BALANCING AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

CHINA DOESN'T WANT TO SEE RUSSIA DEFEATED.

BUT WHETHER OR NOT CHINA WITH SEE THE TWO SIDES DE-ESCALATE AND WHETHER THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, REALLY A LOT OF DIPLOMATIC CAPITAL INVESTED HERE WE'LL HAVE TO SEE.

>> SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN SAID THAT HE WAS WORRIED AND WARNED WANG YI AGAINST CHINA SENDING LETHAL WEAPONS TO THE RUSSIANS TO HELP IN THE UKRAINE.

DO YOU THINK CHINA WILL DO THAT?

>> I THINK THIS IS ULTIMATELY GUIDED BY THE CHINESE RECOGNITION THAT TO DATE PUTIN PROBABLY IS A BIT DISSATISFIED WITH THE EXTENT OF CHINA'S SUPPORT, WHICH HAS LARGELY BEEN CONFINED TO THE DIPLOMATIC, AND AREAS WHICH HAVEN'T BEEN SUBJECTED TO INTERNATIONAL SANCTIONS.

BUT AS PUTIN NEEDS TO REPLENISH, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN, AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS INDICATED THAT THERE HAVE BEEN NON-LETHAL FORMS OF ASSISTANCE, DUAL USE TYPES OF GOODS THAT HAVE GONE FROM CHINESE ENTITIES TO RUSSIAN ENTITIES, AND I THINK THE QUESTION HERE, YOU KNOW, REALLY REMAINS WHAT IS IT THAT WE ULTIMATELY SEE AS DRIVING CHINA'S STRATEGIC CALCULUS HERE?

>> WHAT IS DRIVING ITS STRATEGIC CALCULUS?

>> WELL, ULTIMATELY I THINK CHINA'S GOING TO HAVE TO BALANCE ITS NEED TO RESIST THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ITS DESIRE FOR CONTINUED ACCESS TO INTERNATIONAL TECHNOLOGY, MARKETS AND CAPITAL.

THAT REFLECTS THAT CONTINUING DILEMMA.

AND SO FAR AT LEAST THERE'S A QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT SEES ANY STRATEGIC UPSIDE, AGAIN, TO LIFTING ITS LONG-TERM PARTNERSHIP WITH RUSSIA.

SO FAR AT LEAST THE GROWING TENSIONS IN U.S.-CHINA RELATIONS, THE GROWING CONCERN THAT THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA ARE HEADED FOR A SHOWDOWN OVER TAIWAN, NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE CHINA WANTS SUCH A CONFLICT BUT BECAUSE ACTIONS BY WHETHER IT'S IN TAIWAN OR BY THE UNITED STATES ARE PUSHING IN THAT DIRECTION.

I THINK ONLY CONSOLIDATES XI JINPING'S BELIEF THAT IT NEEDS A STALWART PARTNER IN RUSSIA TO RESIST THE STORMS TO COME.

SO UNTIL WE SEE I THINK NOT JUST THREATS BUT POTENTIAL ASSURANCES THAT IF CHINA DOESN'T GO FORWARD WITH THIS ASSISTANCE THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME BETTER TRAJECTORY AHEAD IN CHINA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WEST.

>> HOW DO WE OFFER THAT BETTER -- WE MEANING THE UNITED STATES.

OFFER THAT BETTER TRAJECTORY.

>> WELL, I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IS OF COURSE THAT OF TAIWAN.

AND I THINK THAT HERE IT'S CRITICAL THAT WE DETER RATHER THAN PROVOKE BEIJING ON THAT ISSUE.

I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS QUITE CLEAR WE STAND BY OUR ONE CHINA POLICY BUT I CERTAINLY THINK THERE ARE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND OTHERS WHO MAY BE CAMPAIGNING FOR ELECTION WHO HAVE GONE MUCH FURTHER AND SAID THE ONE CHINA POLICY HAS OUTLIVED ITS UTILITY AND WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE TAIWAN AS A STATE.

THOSE DO DAMAGE TO THE LONG-TERM PROSPECTS OF PEACE AND STABILITY AND A NON-CONFRONTATIONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA.

SO IT'S THERE THAT IF WE DON'T MAKE THOSE ASSURANCES THAT WE AREN'T SUPPORTING TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE, IF WE CAN'T MAKE THOSE CLEAR AND CREDIBLE I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR US TO ASSURE REALLY THE WORLD, NOT JUST CHINA, THAT THE UNITED STATES WANTS A NON-CONFLICTUAL PRODUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP EVEN IF IT'S TESTY AT TIMES WITH BEIJING.

>> DO YOU THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE FOR THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, NANCY PELOSI, TO GO TO TAIWAN WHEN SHE DID?

>> YOU KNOW, I VISITED TAIWAN IN DECEMBER, AND I THINK THAT THEY RECOGNIZED THAT MAYBE THE COSTS THAT IT BROUGHT WERE GREATER THAN THE BENEFITS OF HER VISIT.

AND SO THESE KINDS OF SYMBOLIC SHOWS OF SUPPORT FOR TAIWAN, HOWEVER UNDERSTANDABLE, DON'T NECESSARILY LEAVE THE ISLAND AND ITS 23 MILLION RESIDENTS ANY BETTER OFF.

AND SO WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN OUR SUPPORT ARE MEANINGFUL WAYS, YOU KNOW, TO BUILD RESILIENCE, INCLUDING THROUGH STRONGER ECONOMIC TIES TO THE ISLAND, AND FIND WAYS TO DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE QUIETLY RATHER THAN WAVING THE RED FLAG.

>> LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING THAT WANG YI, THE CHINESE TOP FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICIAL, SAID AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

HE SAID, "U.S.

BIAS AND IGNORANCE AGAINST CHINA HAS REACHED RIDICULOUS LEVELS.

THE U.S. HAS TO STOP THIS KIND OF ABSURD NONSENSE THAT'S DONE OUT OF DOMESTIC POLITICAL NEEDS."

I FOUND THAT A VERY STRONG STATEMENT.

BUT THEN I ALSO FOUND MYSELF SAYING, WELL, THERE'S SOME TRUTH TO IT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> YOU KNOW, OFTENTIMES THE CASES IN WHICH CHINESE RHETORIC OR PROPAGANDA KIND OF HURTS THE MOST IS WHEN IT SHINES A LIGHT ON THE THINGS THAT WE OURSELVES ARE, THINK, HAVING TROUBLE WITH, WHICH IS DEVELOPING, YOU KNOW, DESPITE THE ADMINISTRATION'S BEST EFFORTS A KIND OF STEADY AS SHE GHOEZ, YOU KNOW, HERE'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO GET OUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER AND LEAD INTERNATIONALLY WHEN YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, A PUBLIC CONVERSATION WHICH IS ALL ABOUT GETTING AS TOUGH AS POSSIBLE AND OFTEN I THINK PLAYING ON SXAJTING THE THREAT THAT CHINA POSE.

NO QUESTION CHINA IS A CHALLENGE, IT'S AN AUTHORITARIAN SYSTEM VERY DIFFERENT FROM OURS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY CHINA'S NOT REALLY GOING ANYWHERE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF WAYS IN WHICH WE CONTINUE TO -- NEED TO CO-EXIST ON SOME TERMS OR OTHER.

AND WHAT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR US, TO MEET MANY OF OUR OWN OBJECTIVES, WHETHER THAT'S MEETING OUR CLIMATE OBJECTIVES WITHOUT CONTINUING TO DO BUSINESS WITH CHINESE ENTITIES, MANY OF WHOM ARE INNOVATING IN CLEAN TECH.

SO I THINK IT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE LIKE VIRGINIA GOVERNOR YOUNGKIN, YOU KNOW, SUGGESTING THAT A FORD BATTERY PLANT THAT USES ORB LICENSES CHINESE TECHNOLOGIES WHERE THEY'RE AHEAD OF THE UNITED STATES IN THAT TECHNOLOGY, SAYING THAT WOULD BE LIKE LETTING THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY INSIDE OUR GATES.

THAT'S AN OWN GOAL.

THAT IS NOT HELPING US AMERICANS TO BE KIND OF THIS KNEE-JERK REACTIVENESS.

BUT IT'S REALLY, I THINK, PART OF THE BROADER POLITICAL DYNAMIC THAT WE FACE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW, TAKING SHOTS AT ONE ANOTHER AND KIND OF TARGETING THE CHINESE BOGEYMAN SEEMS POLITICALLY BENEFICIAL.

>> PART OF THIS TARGETING OF WHAT YOU CALL THE CHINESE BOGEYMAN, YOU SEE IT IN VARIOUS STATES.

YOU'VE MENTIONED GLENN YOUNGKIN.

BUT ALSO IN PLACES LIKE TEXAS WHERE THEY SAY THE RIGHT TO BUY LAND BY CHINESE NATIONALS.

EXPLAIN WHAT THEY'RE DOING THERE AND WHAT EFFECT YOU THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE.

>> SO IN MANY DIFFERENT STATE LEGISLATORS THERE ARE THESE CONSIDERATIONS OF BANS ON FOREIGN OWNERSHIP BY SORT OF ADVERSARY -- NATIONALS OF A FOREIGN ADVERSARY, OF LAND OR REAL ESTATE.

THE SECURITY THREAT HERE IS NOT PARTICULARLY CRYSTAL CLEAR.

YOU MIGHT SAY THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PIECES OF LAND NEAR MILITARY SITES THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO BE PARTICULARLY WITH AND HAVE KIND OF A MECHANISM TO SCRUTINIZE THAT.

BUT A BLANKET BAN ON FOREIGN OWNERSHIP OF REAL ESTATE GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR.

THIS IS A LAND THAT WAS BUILT BY IMMIGRANTS.

AND FRANKLY, A LOT OF OUR COMPETITIVENESS IN HIGH-TECH AREAS REALLY DEPENDS UPON THE KIND OF IMMIGRATION AND ASSIMILATION OF FOREIGN TALENT INTO THE UNITED STATES.

EVEN IF THERE'S A CARVEOUT FOR PERMANENT RESIDENTS, PEOPLE ARE O'V WHO ARE ON THE PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP, THAT PATHWAY IS VERY LONG.

FIRST THEY COME OVER AS GRADUATE STUDENTS AND THEY STAY HERE AS POST-DOCS AND GO OFF INTO INDUSTRY.

AND THESE FOLKS WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO AMERICAN SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL LEADERSHIP.

BUT SURVEYS SUGGEST THAT 60% OF ASIAN AMERICAN SCIENTISTS OF CHINESE ORIGIN SAY THAT THEY FEEL UNWELCOME AND ARE THINKING ABOUT LEAVING.

SO WE WANT TO HERE IN THE UNITED STATES CONTINUE TO LEAD IN INNOVATING ON THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

WE ALSO HAVE TO NURTURE THE TALENT THAT IS GOING TO ALLOW THE UNITED STATES TO REMAIN AT THIS FRONTIER.

>> I'D LIKE TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THIS GREAT AND GROWING CONFLICT WE SEEM TO BE HAVING WITH CHINA POLITICALLY.

OBVIOUSLY IT'S AN AUTHORITARIAN STATE AND IT GOES AGAINST MANY OF OUR VALUES, THE UIGHURS AND THINGS, BUT SHOULD WE TAKE A MORE REALISTIC APPROACH AND SAY FINE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO TRY TO INTERFERE IN THE INTERNAL DYNAMICS OF CHINA AND WE JUST HAVE TO LOOK AT OUR OWN NATIONAL INTERESTS AND BE COMPETITORS WITH CHINA BUT NOT BE IN A CONFLICT WITH CHINA?

>> I THINK YOU'VE PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT.

I THINK WE DO NEED TO.

AND I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION HAS ALREADY, YOU KNOW, RECOGNIZED THAT OUR STRATEGY IS NOT PREMISED ON TRYING TO CHANGE CHINA.

THAT WAS THE NARRATIVE FOR DECADES.

HOWEVER, I THINK MISPLACED, THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS ENGAGING WITH CHINA IN ORDER TO LIBERALIZE CHINA.

I DON'T THINK THAT WAS REALLY THE STORY.

THIS IS FIRST OF ALL ABOUT STANDING TOUPT SOVIET UNION AND OVER TIME THERE WERE A WHOLE VARIETY OF INTERESTS WE PURSUED WITH CHINA AND ULTIMATELY IT WAS BETTER TO HAVE THEM ON THE INSIDE OF THESE INSTITUTIONS THAN THE OUTSIDE.

THAT REMAINS THE CASE.

EVEN THOUGH CHINA IS NO LONGER LIBERALIZING POLITICALLY OR ECONOMICALLY.

AND SO THE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU FIND A MODUS VIVENDI WITH THE SECOND LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD, ONE THAT IS ARMED WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND THAT IS TO DATE SHOWN ITSELF UNDER XI JINPING QUITE CAPABLE OF GIVING AS GOOD AS THEY GET.

AND I THINK RIGHT NOW WHAT WE REALLY OUGHT TO BE LOOKING FOR IS A WAY TO FIGURE OUT HOW IS IT WE THE UNITED STATES CAN BE SECURE AND TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THAT RUN THROUGH LOWERING TENSIONS WITH CHINA INCLUDING IN THIS DOMAIN, WHICH IS WHAT YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON, WHICH IS INTERFERENCE IN EACH OTHER'S AAREAS.

>> BUT LET ME PUSH BACK ON THAT A LITTLE BIT, WHICH IS ISN'T IT A STRENGTH OF OUR FOREIGN POLICY AND US AS A NATION THAT WE STAND FOR CERTAIN VALUES AND WE TRY TO MOMENT THOSE VALUES OVERSEAS OR DOES THAT CAUSE US AN INEVITABLE CONFLICT WITH CHINA WE SHOULDN'T HAVE?

>> SO I THINK THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS TO STAND FOR OUR VALUES AND I THINK THAT ALREADY WE ARE SEEING AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL RECOGNITION, WE CAN STAND FOR OUR VALUES BY BEING AN EXAMPLE TO THE WORLD, WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM GOING AROUND THE WORLD PUTTING OUR THUMB ON THE LEDGER AND TRYING TO SHIFT THE BALANCE OF POWER DOMESTICALLY IN OUR FAVOR.

SO I WOULD SAY HERE WE MIGHT WANT TO DO A LOT MORE ON THE SIDE OF HELPING THOSE WHO ARE ALREADY DEMOCRATIC STAY DEMOCRATIC AND DEEPEN THEIR DEMOCRACY AND DO A LITTLE LESS TO EXACERBATE THE INSECURITIES OF AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY WE LOVE AUTOCRACY.

FAR BE IT.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE DEMOCRACY'S LIGHT CONTINUE TO SHINE.

BUT WE NEED TO DO FIRST THE WORK HERE AT HOME AND THEN WE HAVE TO ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT WE NEED TO PRIORITIZE THE USE OF AMERICAN RESOURCES AND POLITICAL CAPITAL AROUND THE WORLD WHERE IT WILL BE MOST EFFECTIVE AND NOT COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

AND SO I WOULD SAY THAT STARTING WITH THAT KIND OF CORE GROUP OF DEMOCRACIES WOULD BE AN IMPORTANT PLACE TO START IN THAT EFFORT.

>> I'M GOING TO READ YOU SOMETHING YOU WROTE IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CALLED THE CHINA TRAP.

AND YOU WRITE OF THE NEED TO CLARIFY THE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH THE UNITED STATES WOULD WELCOME OR ACCEPT CHINESE INITIATIVES RATHER THAN REFLECTIONIVELY OPPOSING THEM.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN ABOUT REFLEXIVELY OPPOSING THEM?

IS THAT SOME POLITICAL PROBLEM WE HAVE HERE?

AND WHAT AFFIRMATIVE VISION WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT WE PROPOSE?

>> I FEAR WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE IN THIS REFLEXIVE, REACTIVE POSITION WHERE THE IMPETUS WHERE IF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT PUTS FORTH A NEW INSTITUTION LIKE THE ASIAN INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT BANK OR NOW WE HAVE THE GLOBAL SECURITY INITIATIVE THE INSTINCT IS TO SAY CHINA BAD WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT WE WANT.

AND TO WHAT EXTENT ARE THERE OVERLAPPING ELEMENTS OF WHAT CHINA IS PROPOSING AND WHAT WE WOULD ULTIMATELY DESIRE SUCH THAT WE COULD SAY, WELL, HERE'S THE PIECES OF WHAT CHINA'S PROPOSING THAT ARE OKAY AND HERE'S WHAT'S NOT OKAY AND IF WE COULD WORK OUT WHAT THAT OVERLAP IS THAT'S AN AREA WHERE WE CAN AT LEAST AGREE NOT TO NECESSARILY GET IN EACH OTHER'S WAY EVEN IF WE ARE NOT FULLY COOPERATING OR COLLABORATING IN THAT ENDEAVOR.

>> YOU'VE SAID THAT THE REFLEXIVE CRITICISM OF CHINA IS PART OF AN ECHO CHAMBER ALMOST, THAT PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO APPEAR SOFT ON CHINA.

IN BOTH PARTIES.

THEY DO NOT WANT TO APPEAR SOFT ON CHINA AND SO THEY GET INTO THIS ECHO CHAMBER.

YOU WERE IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

ISN'T IT TRUE OF THE DEMOCRATS AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAT THEY'RE A LITTLE BIT AFRAID OF BEING SEEN SOFT ON CHINA?

>> THIS GOES BACK TO THIS QUESTION OF IS THERE ANY POLITICAL UPSIDE DOMESTICALLY OF RAISING INCONVENIENT QUESTIONS GIVEN THE BROADER MOOD, WHICH IS ONE OF LET'S GET TOUGH ON CHIEN AH?

AND IT'S NOT JUST THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

IT'S NOT JUST THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

I WOULD SAY THIS DYNAMIC OF OUTHAWKING EACH OTHER IS REALLY PRESENT ON CAPITOL HILL AS WELL AS THINK TANKS AND THE BROADER POLICY CONVERSATION.

OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE GENUINELY AND SINCERELY COMMITTED TO THEIR BOTH VERY DIRE ASSESSMENTS OF WHAT CHINA'S DOING AND THE KINDS OF POLICIES WE OUGHT TO TAKE IN RESPONSE.

BUT I HAVE HEARD DIRECTLY FROM PEOPLE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT THAT THEY WOULDN'T NECESSARILY AGREE BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO STICK OUT THEIR NECK TO QUESTION THOSE VIEWS AND EVEN GO FURTHER, TO ECHO THEM TO WANT TO BE AS HAWKISH AS THE NEXT GUY IN ORDER TO NOT BE ATTACKED POLITICALLY.

AND SO TO ME THAT SUGGESTS A REAL PROBLEM IN OUR BROADER CONVERSATION WHICH MAKES IT HARD TO THINK ABOUT WHERE ARE WE GOING, WHAT ARE THE RESULTS OF THE POLICIES THAT WE ARE ADOPTING, HOW DO WE FASHION THEM IN WAYS THAT DELIVER FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS OPPOSED TO JUST SOUND TOUGH ON CHINA BECAUSE ULTIMATELY STANDING UP TO CHINA ISN'T A STRATEGY, IT'S NOT A POLICY AND ULTIMATELY WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE TO SURVIVE IN THIS WORLD AND AVOID WHAT I FEAR IS A LOOMING CRISIS OR CONFLICT WITH CHINA IN PART AS A RESULT OF OUR INABILITY TO PRIORITIZE AS WELL AS OFFER THESE CLEAR CHOICES WHERE IF CHINA DOES THIS THEY CAN EXPECT THAT BUT IF THEY IS CHOOSE A LESS ESCALATORY OPTION THEY CAN ALSO EXPECT SOME DEGREE OF RESTRAINT ON OUR SIDE.

AND RIGHT NOW THE DOMESTIC POLITICS OF THIS ALL POINT IN ONE DIRECTION, WHICH GIVES ME LITTLE, YOU KNOW, CONFIDENCE OR COMFORT THAT WE ARE EVEN INTERESTED IN FIGURING OUT SOME KIND OF MODUS VIVENDI.

>> JESSICA CHEN WEISS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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