February 22, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

UKRAINE BRACES FOR A SECOND YEAR OF WAR AND I SPEAK TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S SENIOR ADVISOR.

>> HOUSES ARE SHAKING, MISSILES ARE FLYING.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO WAIT FOR.

WE'RE SHAKING LIKE CHICKENS.

>> LIBERATED VILLAGES.

A REPORT FROM THE EASTERN FRONT.

>>> THEN.

>> WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO US, MAKE SURE THAT RUSSIA LEAVES BEHIND ITS IMPERIL AMBITIONS.

>> NATO'S EASTERN FRONT STANDS FIRM AGAINST RUSSIAN EXPANSION.

MY EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE POLISH PRESIDENT ANDRE DUDA AS HE HOSTS PRESIDENT BIDEN AND OTHER EUROPEAN LEADERS.

>>> PLUS, FROM JANUARY 6th TO POLICE BRUTALITY.

POLITZER PRIZE WINNER AUTHOR TALKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN HOW A CENTURY OLD SYSTEM IS HURTING DEMOCRACY.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN KYIV WHERE UKRAINE IS BRACING AND HEADING INTO A SECOND YEAR OF WAR.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN SPENT THREE DAYS HERE AND IN NEIGHBORING POLAND SURING UP AMERICA'S SUPPORT FOR THIS COUNTRY MEETING WITH NATO LEADERS FROM ACROSS EASTERN EUROPE AND PRESENTING A UNITED FRONT AGAINST VLADIMIR IN WARSAW YESTERDAY, BIDEN DELIVERED A DEFIANT AND FAIRY SPEECH TOTING AN ALLIANCE COMMITTED TO PROTECTING DEMOCRACY WHILE IN BRUSSELS, THE EUROPEAN UNION DISCUSSED YET ANOTHER ROUND OF SANCTIONS AGAINST THE KREMLIN.

IN MOSCOW, THOUSANDS ATTENDED A CONCERT TO CELEBRATE THE RUSSIAN MILITARY.

PUTIN DESCRIBED HIS WAR AS QUOTE OUR HISTORICAL FRONTIERS FOR OUR PEOPLE AND JUST AHEAD OF THAT CONCERT, PUTIN HELD TALKS WITH TOP CHINESE DIPLOMAT WAN YEE.

IT'S SAID XI JINPING WILL TRAVEL TO MEET WITH PUTIN IN PERSON.

AS WE SAID, BIDEN BROUGHT A LOUD AND WELCOME MESSAGE TO KYIV MONDAY THERE SHOULD NOT BE A SHADOW OF A DOUBT WHERE AMERICA LIES.

WE GET THE LATEST ON THE ROUTE AHEAD WITH THE DEPUTY HEAD OF PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S OFFICE JOINING ME NOW HERE IN KYIV.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE'VE SPOKEN MANY TIMES OVER THE LAST 12 MONTHS.

FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT DID IT MEAN FOR YOU?

WERE YOU AT THE MEETINGS WITH BIDEN?

DID IT MEAN FOR YOU?

>> THE VISIT OF PRESIDENT BIDEN IS TIMELY, WAS IMPORTANT, WAS SYMBOLIC AND WAS RESULTFUL.

TIMELY BECAUSE HE CAME NOT ONLY THIS IMPORTANT WEEK OF ONE ANNIVERSARY, WE CAN CALL IT AN -- ANNIVERSARY, ONE DAY AFTER THIS OPEN AGGRESSION.

THE CELEBRATION OF DIGNITY IN 2014.

HE WAS OFTEN IN THESE EVENTS TRAVELING TO KYIV MANY TIMES.

HE CRIME WITH A CONCRETE PROPOSAL IN TERMS OF WEAPONRY AND POLITICAL AND SANCTIONS.

HE SENT A VERY STRONG SIGNAL TO THE AGGRESSOR COMING OUT OF AGGRESSOR AT THE CENTER OF KYIV THAT HAS TO BE RUINED SEVERAL TIMES PROBABLY BUT HE CAME, HE MET MY PRESIDENT, HE SAW UKRAINIANS RESILIENT WITH STANDING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

>> I'M GOING TO PLAY PART OF THAT BIT OF HIS SPEECH YESTERDAY, WHICH BASICALLY SUMS UP WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

HE SAW A UKRAINE AND A CAPITAL THAT HAD DEFIED THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO IT WOULD FALL.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> YEAR YEAR AGO, WAS THE START OF THE WAR AGAINST KYIV.

KYIV STANDS TALL, PROUD AND FREE.

OUR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE WILL NOT WAIVER, UKRAINE WILL NOT BE DIVIDED AND WE WILL NOT TIRE.

PRESIDENT PUTIN WILL FAIL AND UKRAINIAN'S LOVE WILL NOT FAIL.

>> LAST YOUR MIND BACK TO THIS TIME, FEBRUARY 24th LAST YEAR.

JUST WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN IT ALL UNFOLDED, WHEN IT ALL GOT STARTED?

>> THERE WAS NO TIME TO THINK.

WE WERE BROUGHT ON OUR FEET FROM THE BUS, OF COURSE, KYIV, OF COURSE OTHER CITIES.

THERE WAS NO TIME TO THINK.

WE RUSHED TO THE WORKING PLACES.

WE RUSHED IMMEDIATELY TO THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT AND WE STARTED THIS AGGRESSION.

SOLDIERS STARTED TO FIGHT AND DIPLOMATS STARTED TO FIGHT ON THE DIPLOMATIC FRONT.

THE FIRST PHONE CALL COMING FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN ON THIS DAY AND MANY MORE PHONE CALLS FOLLOWED, THEN, THE LEADERS STARTED TO VISIT KEY YOEF -- KKYIV.

MANY WORLD LEADERS HAVE COME TO KYIV.

IT'S STRUGGLING AND SURVIVING AND DEFINITELY BRINGING VICTORY.

>> DID YOU THINK THAT AT THAT TIME?

ALL YOUR FRIENDS WERE SAYING IF THIS HAPPEN IT COULD FALL IN DAYS.

DO YOU THINK AT THAT TIME RUSSIA WOULD SHOW ITSELF UNABLE TO CAPTURE THE CAPITAL OR THIS MUCH OF THE COUNTRY?

>> I WILL NOT CALL THEM FRIENDS.

THEY'RE CALLED MILITARY EXPERTS LIKE OKAY, THREE DAYS, FIVE DAYS AND ONE WEEK, THEN TWO WEEKS.

NOW WE'RE HAVING THE ONE YEAR WAR AND WE PROVED THEY CAN DO BATTLE FIELDS.

IN THE BEGINNING BEING ABLE TO FIGHT.

THEN WE HAVE MORE AND MORE WESTIN -- WESTERN 24th OF FEBRUARY IS LIBERATED ALREADY.

AND TO GO FURTHER, PROVIDE YOU HAVE ENOUGH WEAPON AND AMMUNITION, SUPPORT AND WILL.

>> I'LL FOLLOW UP.

IT WAS A RESULTFUL MEETING.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE MORE PLEDGES OF WEAPONS.

I WANT TO PUT WHAT PRESIDENT PUTIN SAID IN HIS SPEECH IN HISBASICALLY SAID IT IS IMPOSSIBLE RUSSIA WILL BE DEFEATED ON THE BATTLE FIELD.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> Translator: WE HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO RESOLVE THIS PROBLEM PEACEFULLY BUT A NEW SCENARIO IS UNLEASHED AND PEACE INITIATIVE HAVES BEEN COMPLETELY SUBVERTED BY LIES, HYPOCRISY.

>> AS YOU SEE, HE'S CONSTANTLY SAYING THEY TRY TO RESOLVE IT PEACEFULLY AND IT'S YOUR FAULT AND THE WEST'S FAULT AND THEY HAD TO INTERVENE TO STOP THE AGGRESSION THE WEST STARTED HERE.

I PRETTY MUCH UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL LOOK LIKE GOING FORWARD FROM THE RUSSIAN PERSPECTIVE?

>> HARD FOR ME TO COMMAND A NARRATIVE FOR THEIR WAY OF THINKING.

HOW COME YOU TELL THEY WANTED PEACE AND START WAR?

THEY TELL UKRAINE WANTED WAR AND UKRAINE IS SUFFERING AND DYING AND UKRAINE IS THE FIRST COUNTRY TO WANT PEACE FORMULA PLAN, TEN POINTS, HOW TO GO FROM POINT AND POINT MILITARY FROM THE AGGRESSIVE INSTRUMENTS NOT ONLY THE BATTLE FIELD BUT THE AREA, FOOT SECURITY, ENVIRONMENT, ET CETERA.

HOW WILL IT FALL AND HOW WILL IT GO FOR RUSSIA?

WE'LL TRY TO MAKE THE REVENGE IF THEY COME IN DAYS OR MONTHS.

>> DO YOU SEE THAT?

YOU TALKED A LOT ABOUT IT.

DO YOU SEE PREPARATIONS FOR THIS BIG OFFENSIVE.

>> PROBABLY NOT MANAGING TO HAVE SOMETHING BIG UNFORTUNATELY FOR THEM BUT THEY'RE TRYING ALREADY AND CONCENTRATING HEAVILY FROM THE EAST OF UKRAINE IN SEVERAL POINTS TRYING TO MAKE THIS WHAT IS NOT HAPPENING TO THEM FOR ALL YEARS.

REMEMBER, THEY WERE TRYING TO CAPTURE DONBAS AND AFTER NINE YEARS THEY'RE NOT CAPTURING DONBAS.

THIS IS THEIR OBSESSION TO CAPTURE THE TERRITORY OF DONBAS.

IT'S HAPPENING BECAUSE THE SITUATION IS DIFFICULT ON THE EAST.

THE SAME WILL HAPPEN THEY WILL THINK OF HAVING.

SHELLING, YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY IN KHERSON AS HE WAS SPEAKING.

>> SO YOU HAVE RECEIVED ALL SORTS OF HIGH TECH AND HIGHLY EFFECTIVE WEAPON SYSTEMS FROM YOUR NATO ALLIES.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS ALWAYS NO, NO, AND THEN YES, YES, YOU RECEIVED THE LONG RANGE ARTILLERY, YOU RECEIVED THE HIGH MARS AND PATRIOT AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS.

YOU'VE RECEIVED TANKS NOW AND MAYBE, MAYBE, YOU MIGHT RECEIVE PLANES THERE ARE CERTAIN ELEMENTS THAT THINK YOU NEED FIGHTER JETS.

HAVE YOU BEEN TOLD ANYTHING ABOUT THAT?

I WILL MAKE A CORRECTION.

WE RECEIVE THE PROMISE ON ITEMS I MENTIONED BUT NOT DELIVERABLES.

I'M TALKING ABOUT BATTLE TANKS.

WE THIS TANK COALITION.

TANKS ARE THERE INCLUDING U.S., SOME OTHER IMPORTANT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

>> GERMANY.

>> GERMANY FOR INSTANCE.

LUCKILY, THEY ARE THERE NOW.

WE HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THE FAR RANGE ARTILLERY WE'RE ABOUT TO RECEIVE.

SO VERY IMPORTANT, THE DECISION SHOULD IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW BY THE DELIVERY, DELIVERY ON THE BAT THE FIELD.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, BEING IN LONDON, BEING IN BRUSSELS WHEN TALKING TO PRIME MINISTER OF SWEDEN VISITING KYIV NOT SO RECENTLY.

SO IT'S FORMING.

IT A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLICATED EVEN THAN TANKS BUT DEFINITELY IT WILL HAPPEN.

>> DO YOU THINK YOU'LL GET IT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> DO YOU WORRY THE BIG CONVERSATION AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE WAS NATO RUNNING OUT OF AMMUNITION, THAT YOU GUYS ARE SPENDING SO MUCH AND FIRING SO MANY ARTILLERY SHELLS THAT THE PRODUCTION CAPACITY OF THE NATO COUNTRIES CANNOT KEEP UP AT THE MOMENT?

DO YOU WORRY THAT THERE IS A DEFICIT OF AMMUNITION BETWEEN YOU AND RUSSIA, WHICH HAS GOT 24/7 PRODUCTION GOING?

>> THERE IS A SIMPLE WAY OUT OF THIS SITUATION TO START PRODUCING, TO START PRODUCING IMMEDIATELY NOW.

WE WILL ALWAYS NEED IT -- NOT ONLY WE UKRAINE, WE IN EUROPE WILL NEED IT.

THAT'S WHY HIGH TIME TO RENEW THE PRODUCTIONS TO ESTABLISH THE NEW ONES.

IT'S HIGH TIME TO HAVE A JOINT VENTURE WITH UKRAINE BECAUSE UKRAINE HAS THIS MILITARY INDUSTRY POTENTIAL AND FORTUNATE WE CAN USE IT FULLY DURING THE WARTIME.

WE CAN DO THIS.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND RUSSIA WILL ALWAYS BE AGGRESSIVE EVEN AFTER A VICTORY OF UKRAINE AND UKRAINE WILL STAY HERE IN THE EASTERN FLANK OF NATO AND THE EASTERN PART OF EUROPE DEFENDING THE WHOLE EUROPEAN CONTINENT.

FOR US IT'S BENEFICIAL TO HAVE UKRAINE IN THE ALLIANCE RATHER THAN OUT AND TO UNITE EFFORTS TOGETHER TO -- FOR THIS PART OF WORLD TO BE THE MOST SECURE.

>> THE IMF CHIEF WAS HERE.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REBUILDING.

TALKING ABOUT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEING PLEDGED FOR REBUILDING EFFORT.

I THINK YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT IS TALKING TO ALL SORTS OF OUTSIDE PARTIES ABOUT REBUILDING IN THE FUTURE.

THEY ALSO SAY RUSSIA'S ECONOMY WHILE SHRANK 2.2% WILL GROW NOT .2% THIS YEAR.

DOES IT WORRY YOU?

DO YOU THINK THE SANCTIONS WILL HAVE AN EFFECT ON RUSSIA'S ABILITY TO PROSECUTE THE WAR?

>> THEY DEFINITELY ARE HAVING AN EFFECT.

IF YOU THINK IT QUICK ENOUGH, MY ANSWER WOULD BE NO.

WE INTRODUCE THE WORLD TO THESE SANCTIONS FOR A YEAR.

THE PRESIDENT WAS ASKING PLEASE HAVE PREVENTIVE SANCTIONS.

NO ONE WAS REACTING.

SO NOW, EU, US, UK, CANADA AND JAPAN ARE INTRODUCING SANCTIONS.

WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO BE MORE QUICK AND MORE EFFICIENT.

SOMETIMES THAT'S NOT HAPPENING BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE SANCTION.

SOMETIMES THEY'RE ADOPTED WITH THE PERIOD.

SOMETIMES THE PEOPLE IN RUSSIA HAVE A FIND IN THE LOOPHOLE AND CIRCUMVENTIVE EFFORTS TO AVOID THEM AND THEN THE NEXT PACKAGE WE HAVE TO HAVE THOSE LOOPHOLES AND CIRCUMVENTIONS.

SOMETIMES THERE IS LACK OF POLITICAL COURAGE TO IMPOSE NEW SANCTIONS AGAINST THE NUCLEAR AND CAPTURED THE BIGGEST NUCLEAR POWER PLANT IN EUROPE AND STILL HAVE STRAINED RELATIONS WITH SOME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

THERE IS PROPAGANDA POISONING THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIA AND AROUND THE COUNTRIES AROUND AND STILL ENJOYING THEIR FREEWAY OF LIFE IN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, THIS MIGHT BE A GAME CHANGER.

DO YOU WORRY WHEN YOU SEE THE TOP CHINESE DIPLOMAT IN MOSCOW TALKING ABOUT HOW THIS HAS TO END, TALKING ABOUT WE HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE IN A CRISIS, THE FACT THAT APPARENTLY THERE ARE REPORTS PRESIDENT XI HIMSELF MIGHT GO TO MOSCOW?

>> THIS IS A DIPLOMATIC VISIT HE'S HAVING.

MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS IN MUNICH AND HAD A VERY SUBSTANTIAL TALK.

>> MIGHT THEY GIVE LETHAL WEAPONRY?

>> WE DON'T HAVE THIS INFORMATION.

NOT POSSESS THIS INFORMATION BUT WE COUNT ON THE WISDOM OF CHINESE SIDE.

CHINA WAS ALWAYS WISE.

CHINA WILL PROBABLY NOT TAKE THIS ONE SIDED POSITION TO STAND ON THE SIDE OF THE EVIL.

>> IGOR, THANK YOU.

BEEN AN INCREDIBLE YEAR.

>>> FOR WEEKS, RUSSIAN AND UKRAINIAN FORCES HAVE BEEN LOCKED IN A FIERCE BATTLE FOR BAKHMUT AND MANY LIVE IN THE FEAR OF BEING RECAPTURED.

SAM KILEY HAS THIS REPORT.

>> Reporter: A YEAR INTO RUSSIA'S MISERY IS ALL TOO FAMILIAR.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED THREE DAYS AGO HERE AN S 300 USED FOR GROUND ATTACK, WHICH ACTUALLY DESIGNED FOR BRINGING DOWN ARAB PLANES BUT CARRIES A MASSIVE WAR HEAD, PRETTY INACT RID AND THAT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE RUSSIANS, THIS IS ALL ABOUT SMASHING UP.

IT WILL BE A MAJOR PUSH ON THE COUNTRY.

>> CAPTURED ON THE SECOND DAY OF VLADIMIR PUTIN'S INVASION LAST FEBRUARY, THIS ISN'T A TOWN THAT SCARES EASILY.

IT WAS LIBERATED AND WITHIN MORTAR RANGE OF RUSSIAN TROOPS TODAY.

YET, THESE TEENAGERS ARE TAKING A WALK THROUGH WHAT REMAINS OF THEIR VILLAGE.

>> MY DAD HAS A FARM.

WE HAS LAND.

WE CAN'T LEAVE IT BEHIND.

IF IT GETS SERIOUS, THEN WE'LL LEAVE.

>> HAVING A MISSILE THAT BIG LAND IN THE MIDDLE OF TOWN IS ALREADY REALLY SERIOUS.

>> Translator: VERY SERIOUS IS PROBABLY WHEN A LOT OF HOUSES ARE DESTROYED AND CIVILIANS SUFFER SHE EXPLAINS.

IT'S THE DEFIANCE OF UKRAINIAN CIVILIANS THAT RUSSIA IS TRYING TO CRUSH.

PUTIN'S ROCKETS AND ARTILLERY RAINED DOWN ON THE NORTHERN BORDER IN RUSSIA AND 30 KILOMETERS, 800 MILES.

THIS ISN'T ACCIDENTAL.

IT'S DELIBERATE.

THE AREAS BEAR THE BRUNT OF ATTACKS BY RUSSIA.

HERE AS IN KHERSON, CIVILIANS SURVIVE ON RUSSIANS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO SHE SAYS.

HOUSES ARE SHAKING AND MISSILES ARE FLYING AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO WAIT FOR, WE'RE SHAKING LIKE CHICKENS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT.

FIGHTING HAS BEEN MOST INTENSE IN AND AROUND BAKHMUT WITH A SURGE ON RUSSIA AND NEARBY VILLAGES ON A FORTASTE OF THE ANTICIPATED OFFENSIVE.

THIS TANK CALLED BENNY FROM RUSSIA LAST MARCH ARE RUNNING LOW ON AMMUNITION.

HE SAYS HE SOMETIMES IS IN COMBAT WITH ONLY TEN SHELLS A DAY.

>> IT REALLY HARD.

WE HAVE A LOT OF CASUALTIES EVERY DAY AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE FIGHTING MOVED INSIDE THE CITY BECAUSE LIKE FIGHTING LIKE BUILDING TO BUILDING AND THE DISTANCE IS 25 TO 60 METERS SO WE CAN'T USE ARTILLERY WELL.

>> HERE CIVILIANS PLACE THEIR FAITH IN UKRAINE'S FORCES TO HOLD OFF THE RUSSIANS.

AND PLAY THEIR PART BY STAYING ON AND STAYING ARRIVE.

>>> ON THE BOARDER WITH PRESIDENT DUDA WITH THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE AND HOW POLAND'S HISTORY OF AGGRESSION BY RUSSIA AND NAZIS SHAPES RESPONSE TO PUTIN'S INVASION.

FRESH FROM HIS MEETING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, I SPEAK TO PRESIDENT DUDA WHAT MORE THE ALLIES CAN DO TO SECURE A UKRAINIAN VICTORY.

PRESIDENT ANDRE DUDA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HELLO.

>> HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THIS MOMENT FOR YOU BEFORE PRESIDENT BIDEN ARRIVED, YOU SAID THE SPEECH, THE MEETING WOULD BE SIGNIFICANCE GLOBAL REALIZATIONS.

>> Translator: LET ME START BY SAYING THESE TWO DAYS, TODAY AND YESTERDAY THE SURPRISE VISIT BY JOE BIDEN IN KYIV, IT SENDS AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL SIGNAL, IT'S A DEMONSTRATION OF STRENGTH OF THE UNITED STATES INDEED.

SAYING AMERICAN LEADER THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD IS ABLE TO TRAVEL EVEN WHEN WAR IS RAGING TO A PLACE WHERE THERE IS A POTENTIAL DANGER.

HE IS NOT AFRAID BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES IS STRONG ENOUGH TO PROTECT HIM.

THAT IS NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, HE WAS THERE AND TODAY HE'S IN WARSAW GIVING HIS SPEECH TO THE WORLD.

THIS IS THE SPEECH BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD AND DEFENSE OF NATO AND EVERY INCH OF THE TERRITORY AS THE PRESIDENT SAID TODAY SO TO US, THIS AMERICAN SIGNAL, THIS ALLY SIGNAL NOT ONLY WITHIN NATO THAT FIRST WAS SENT BY THE GREATER SUPER POWER IN THE WORLD TODAY IS SO SIGNIFICANT AND THEREFORE THAT SPEECH OF MR. PRESIDENT AND THE PRESENCE OF MR. PRESIDENT HERE IN POLAND IS A CRUCIAL IMPORTANCE TO US.

>> I KNOW FOR SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS YOU HAVE BEEN STRUGGLING WITH DOMINATION AND THIS IS MORE INTENSE FOR WESTERN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES AND YOU, PLUS THE BALTIC STATES AND OTHERS IN EASTERN EUROPE HAVE BEEN VERY VOCAL ABOUT YOUR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

IS IT BECAUSE OF YOUR HISTORY?

>> Translator: YES, FOR SURE.

NOT ONLY ABOUT HISTORY BUT PLEASE BEAR IN MIND FOR A PERSON LIKE MYSELF, I WAS BORN IN 1972.

I WAS BORN BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE CURTAIN COLLAPSED IN 1989, 1990 SO WE HAD THE FIRST FREE ELECTIONS AS A RESULT OF PEACEFUL SOLIDARITY AND TOOK PLACE IN 1989.

I WAS 17 BACK THEN AND ALMOST AN ADULT SO I REMEMBER EVERYTHING VIVIDLY I STILL RECALL THE HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I WENT TO WESTERN EUROPE AT 18.

THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I WAS ABLE TO TRAVEL TO WESTERN EUROPE BECAUSE MY FAMILY DIDN'T HAVE CONNECTIONS AND SO IN FACT, WE DIDN'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRAVEL TO WESTERN EUROPE AND COMMUNIST WAS BROUGHT TO POLAND AND IMPOSED WITH FORCE UPON US, IF SOMEBODY IS TELLING ME, I'M SAYING NO, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THIS IS WHAT UKRAINIANS ARE THINKING.

THAT'S WHY THEY'RE DEFENDING THEMSELVES.

>> THE UNITED STATES AND ALLIES STOOD UNITED AND THE PRESIDENT TODAY SAID THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN DID NOT THINK YOU WOULD REMAIN UNITED.

WHAT MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE ALL THE WEAPON SYSTEMS THAT YOU'VE BEEN TO BE DONE TO GET VICTORY IN THIS WAR.

>> Translator: THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UKRAINE IS HUGE AND OBVIOUS.

EVERYBODY EXPECTED THAT IT WOULD TAKE 72 HOURS AT THE MOST AND AFTER 72 HOURS UKRAINE WOULD FALL AND BE CAPTURED BY RUSSIA.

IN 2002 WAS IN KYIV AND TALKED TO ZELENSKYY AND AT THE LAST MOMENT, ACTUALLY, WE MADE IT TO THE POLISH BORDER AND TRAVELED BY CAR THEN AND RIGHT AFTER THAT, RUSSIAN MISSILES STRUCK.

SO I REMEMBER WHEN I SAID GOOD-BYE TO VLADIMIR, VLADIMIR TOLD ME ANDRE, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE WOULD SEE EACH OTHER AGAIN.

THAT WAS A VERY POWERFUL MOMENT AND HE TOLD ME UKRAINE AND THEY DID WITH CRIMEA IN 2014 HE IS MISTAKEN.

80 YEARS OF COMMON EXPERIENCE AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE FIGHTING ON THE FRONT.

WE'RE GOING TO FIGHT UNTIL THE END THAT IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND THEY'RE FINDING UNTIL TODAY.

SO FIRST OF ALL, THEY NEED WEAPONS BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCE IS HUGE IN TERMS OF QUANTITY AND WHAT RUSSIANS GOT THOSE TANKS AND CRASHING AND THEY HAVE THIS ADVANTAGE OF STEEL OF THE MASS AND THEY ARE CRASHING UKRAINIANS.

THEY'RE 140 MILLION RUSSIANS AND LESS THAN 40 MILLION UKRAINIANS SO THIS SHOWS YOU THAT MOBILIZATION POTENTIAL OF RUSSIA AND MOBILIZATION POTENTIAL OF UKRAINE.

SO IT'S ENOUGH TO LOOK AT THESE CLEAR DATA TO UNDERSTAND THAT UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES, UNLESS UKRAINE GETS SUPPORT, IT HAS NO CHANCE OF DEFENDING ITSELF ON ITS OWN AGAINST RUSSIA.

THAT IS WHY UKRAINE NEEDS THIS SUPPORT.

WHAT SUPPORT CAN WE OFFER TO UKRAINE AS ALLIES?

WHAT THE UNITED STATES IS DOING AND WHAT WE'RE DOING AS POLAND WE DONATED TO UKRAINE 300 TIMES FROM OUR STOCKS.

RIGHT NOW, WE ARE PROVIDING MORE TANKS TO UKRAINE.

AT THIS MOMENT, WE ARE SENDING THE STATE OF THE ART TANKS WE HAVE, LEOPARD TANKS AND PROVIDING LEOPARD TANKS AND WE HAVE ORGANIZED AND LIKE COLLECTIONS SO TO SPEAK OF TANKS FOR UKRAINE.

THIS IS WHAT I WAS REQUESTED TO DO BY VLADIMIR ZELENSKYY THE PRIME MINISTER OF UKRAINE ASKED FOR THAT AND INITIATED THAT TODAY.

THE KEY TO MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE DEFENDS ITSELF AGAINST RUSSIA IS MODERN WEAPONS.

SO THAT UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS CAN EFFICIENTLY FIND AND THEY HAVE MEANS TO PUSH RUSSIANS WITH.

>> EVEN FIGHTER JETS?

>> IF THERE IS SUCH A NEED, OF COURSE, YES.

WE HAVE 29s.

UKRAINE AND PILOTS ARE PREPARED TO OPERATE THEM TODAY.

THE QUESTION IS WHEN WILL UKRAINE AND PILOTS BE READY TO FLY MODERN AIRCRAFT AT NATO STANDARDS LIKE F-16s OR MARIAGE OR FRENCH PLANES?

THIS A QUESTION MARK WHEN UKRAINIAN PILOTS WILL BE READY TO DO THAT BECAUSE THE TRAINING OF A PILOT IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED AND LONGER THAN THE TRAINING FOR A TANKER.

SO THIS IS THE WAY IT IS.

HERE IS A QUESTION MARK WHEN WILL UKRAINE BE READY WITH ITS OWN FORCE TO USE SUCH PLANES?

>> I REALIZE THAT YOU'RE ALL SORT OF HOLDING OFF ON THAT BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE LEOPARD TANKS WHICH YOU WERE VERY VOCAL IN UNLEASHING FROM GERMANY AND THIS WEEKEND AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, CHANCELLOR SCHULTZ SAID GERMANY HAS TO PERSUADE YOU-ALL WITH LEOPARD TANKS TO SEND THEM TO UKRAINE.

THERE IS SLOWNESS ABOUT THIS.

WHEN WILL YOUR LEOPARD TANKS GET TO UKRAINE?

>> Translator: WE'RE READY TO SEND OUR TANKS ALREADY TO BE SENT.

NOW WE'RE TRAINING SOLDIERS SO THEY'RE ABLE TO OPERATE THE TANKS.

SO I WAS SURPRISED BY THE ANSWER THAT CHANCELLOR SCHULTZ GAVE YOU.

I HOPE THAT THEY ALSO DO BECAUSE HONESTLY, WE HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEMS WITH GETTING SPARE PARTS TO TANKS, SPARE PARTS FROM GERMANY SO THESE PROBLEMS ARE QUITE COMMON, OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE PROBLEMS WITH LEOPARDS BECAUSE GERMANS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE SPARE PARTS.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SIT -- SITUATION BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.

IN THE TRAINING CENTER, UKRAINIAN TANKERS TRAINING ON LEOPARD TANKS AND PREPARING THEM RIGHT NOW THERE IS A TRAINING CYCLE GOING ON LAST WEEK ON MONDAY.

I VISITED THOSE SOLDIERS AND MET THEM.

RIGHT NOW THERE ARE 100 TO GET PREPARED TO OPERATE LEOPARD TANKS.

THERE ARE POLISH INSTRUCTORS WORKING WITH THEM AND CANADIAN INSTRUCTORS FROM CANADA AND NORWEGIAN TRAINERS WORKING WITH THEM.

ALL OF THEM ARE PREPARING UKRAINIAN TANK SOLDIERS TOGETHER AND THEY WILL BE READY WITHIN ONE MONTH TO COME BACK TO UKRAINE TOGETHER WITH TANKS.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT RUSSIA'S ROLE MANY SAYS THERE HAS TO BE A PLACE FOR RUSSIA, WHAT TO DO WITH RUSSIA AFTER THIS WAR.

>> FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE RUSSIA LEAVES BEHIND AMBITIONS AND TO US RUSSIA'S AMBITIONS MEAN A PERMANENT ATTEMPT TO PUSH BACK AND GRABBING OUR LAND AND ECONOMY SO IN A SENSE MAKING SLAVES OUT OF US.

RUSSIA IS THIS EMPIRE WITH COLONIAL AMBITIONS AND WANTS TO SUBGATE OTHER NATIONS AND COUNTRIES AND PROFIT OFF OF THEM AND THE BEST EXAMPLE IS UKRAINE TODAY AND OTHER COUNTRIES OVER RECENT YEARS IN 2008 RUSSIA ATTACKED GEORGIA AND THERE IS A PROBLEM IN MOLDOVA.

THERE ARE RUSSIAN TROOPS DEPLOYED.

THOUGH BROUGHT THE TRIP TO SYRIA.

THEY ARE DESTABILIZING COUNTRIES ACROSS THE GLOBE AND UKRAINE HAS SUFFERED THIS FRONTAL ATTACK FROM RUSSIA BUT THIS IS A DEMONSTRATION THAT RUSSIA IS RESTORING AMBITIONS AND IT HAS TO FORCE RUSSIA TO DO THAT.

THIS IS OUR POSITION AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE SUPPORTING UKRAINE BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IF UKRAINE WITH TANKS, THOSE IMPERIL AMBITIONS OF RUSSIA AND THEN RUSSIA WILL HAVE TO STOP THOSE IMPERIL AMBITIONS.

>> I WANT TO END ASKING A QUESTION ABOUT INTERNAL POLISH PO POLITICS.

YOU HAVE ARGUMENTS WITH THE E.U.

OVER THE COMMITMENT TO E.U.

PRINCIPLES IN THE JUDICIARY AND FREEDOM OF PRESS AND ELSEWHERE.

AND I WONDER WHETHER THIS WAR CHANGED POLICIES AND TEMPERED POLICIES IN THAT REGARD BECAUSE THINK USED TO BE ACQUISITIONS POLAND AND HUNGARY WERE PROUD ILLIBERAL DEMOCRACY OR HAS THIS CHANGED YOUR ATTITUDE ABOUT INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY AND THE FREE PRESS?

>> Translator: WE APPROVE THE PRINCIPLE OF DEMOCRACY OR NOT.

IF WE APPROVE, WE HAVE A VERY SIMPLE MATTER.

THERE IS ELECTION AND PEOPLE VOTE IN GENERAL ELECTION AND MAKE THEIR CHOICES.

THEY VET ON PROGRAM PEOPLE RUNNING IN ELECTIONS.

WE HAVE FULL FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND THE FREEDOM TO PRESENT YOUR OPINIONS.

MYSELF AND MY POLITICAL COMPETITORS NEVER HAD PROBLEMS OF THAT AND COME PATRIOTS ARE MAKING THE CHOICE.

THEY CAST THEIR VOTE AND MAKE THEIR CHOICE IN THIS WAY AS I WAS CHOSEN IN 2015 AND ELECTED FOR THE SECOND TIME TO THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT OF POLAND IN 2020.

THESE WERE FREE VOICES AND THIS GOES FOR THE CURRENT ROLING OF POLAND AND THEY WERE ELECTED IN 2016 AND 2019.

I SAID TODAY THEY'RE DOING THEIR PUBLIC SERVICE BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED DEMOCRATIC MANDATE IN FREE ELECTIONS SO A PROGRAM WAS BEING IMPLEMENTED HEAR, WHICH WAS ANNOUNCED DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN.

SO THIS GOVERNMENT IS NOT LIKED BY THOSE IN BRUSSELS RULING BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THOSE LEFT LIBERAL VIEWS DOMINANT IN BRUSSELS TODAY.

WE'RE IN A CONSERVATIVE PROFILE TODAY THEREFORE THEY DON'T AGREE WITH US AND DOING EVERYTHING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE -- OUR POWER IS TAKEN AWAY.

I BELIEVE THIS IS NOT DEMOCRATIC BECAUSE WE CAN COMPARE IT TO SOMEBODY NOT AGREEING IN BRUSSELS WITH A CHOICE MADE BY THE POLISH PEOPLE.

THIS IS NOT THE TASK OF BRUSSELS AND EUROPEAN COMMISSION AND OTHER E.U.

INSTITUTIONS SO THIS IS A VERY SPECIFIC AND A VERY COMPLEX SITUATION, OF COURSE, WE ARE A MEMBER OF THE U PEEN UNION AND MANAGE TREATY OBLIGATIONS BUT WE CAN SEE THE TREATY OBLIGATIONS ARE VIOLATED VIS-A-VIS POLAND AND INTERFERE INCOME AREAS IN POLAND NOT IN LINE WITH THE TREATIES BECAUSE THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IS NOT REGULATED BY THE EUROPEAN ENTITIES.

THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL MATTER OF EACH MEMBER STATE AND A MATTER OF FACT, EUROPEAN UNION AND BODIES HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFERE IN THE EFFORTS OF POLAND AND POLISH CITIZENS HAVE BEEN HAPPY WITH THE POLISH AUTHORITIES AND THEIR DECISIONS IF THEY VOTED FOR THEM IN THE ELECTIONS.

THIS IS MY ANSWER.

I BELIEVE THE DISPUTE WITH BRUSSELS IS A SIMPLY POLITICAL DISPUTE.

SIMPLY SPEAKING WHO ARE IS IN POWER IN POLAND?

THE CURRENT AUTHORITIES DOMINATING NEW INSTITUTIONS ARE NOT HAPPY BECAUSE THE VIEWS ARE DIFFERENT AND WHO WERE ELECT IN GENERAL ELECTIONS.

>> SO YOU'RE DOUBLING DOWN ON WHAT THEY WOULD CALL ILL REMEMBER REAL BEHAVIOR AROUND THESE TWO SPECIFICISH SHAWS AND HOLDING FUNDS, WITHHOLDING FUNDS FROM YOU.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE?

>> Translator: IT'S EASY TO SAY SOMEONE IS NOT DEMOCRATIC, LIBERAL AND TRYING TO IMPOSE ON MEMBER STATES OTHER CUSTOMS.

DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IS NORMAL IN THOSE COUNTRIES.

IT IS CONTRARY TO THE TREATIES AND IDEAL THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS BASED UNTIL THE INCEPTION.

>> YOUR COMMITMENT TO UKRAINE'S DEFENSE IS SOLID.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> TURNING NOW TO THE UNITED STATES.

IN A MAGAZINE COVER STORY, ISABELLE WILKINSON ARGUES FROM JANUARY 6th TO TYRE NICHOLS, AMERICAN LIFE IS STILL DEFINED BY CAST AND SHE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW IT CONTINUES TO INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF THE MARGINALIZED.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU WROTE A BOOK IN 2020 CALLED CAST AND YOU'VE RECENTLY PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN TIME.

YOU ARGUE A LOT OF THINGS WE'RE GOING THROUGH NOW FROM JANUARY 6th TO THE TYRE NICHOLS MURDER CAN BE TRACED TO CAST.

SO WOULD YOU JUST TALK ABOUT LIKE WHY YOU SAY THAT?

FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS CAST AND HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND THAT AS, SAY, DIFFERENT FROM I DON'T KNOW, INEQUALITY OF SOME OTHER SORT AND WHY DO YOU SAY SO MANY EVENTS ARE ACTUALLY TIED TO AN AMERICAN UNSPOKEN CAST SYSTEM IN AMERICAN LIFE?

>> CAST IS ESSENTIALLY AN OLD FORM OF HIERARCHY OF SOCIETY AND HAS CERTAIN.

THERE IS GRADED RANKING OF HUMAN VALUE WHICH IS A WHAT IS A CAST SYSTEM IS.

IN ANY CAST, IT IS WHAT PEOPLE LOOK LIKE WHICH WE USE AS THE IDEA OF RACE AND WE CAN SEE THE AFTER EFFECTS OF IN OUR CURRENT DAY.

IN 2020 THE TRAJECTORY OF THE LIFE SPAN OF THE BOOK THAT CAME OUT WEEKS AFTER GEORGE FLOYD IS KILLED AND SIX MONTHS LATER THERE WAS JANUARY 6th, WHICH WAS HISTORIC, YOU KNOW, INFLECTION POINT IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY.

WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE 19th CENTURY TO FIND ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT AND THEN WE HAVE THE OVERTURNING OF ROE V. WADE AND THEN JUST WEEKS BEFORE THIS BOOK CAME OUT IN PAPER BACK, WHICH YOU REFERRED TO, WE HAVE THE KILLING OF TYRE NICHOLS AND THERE ARE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THESE THINGS THAT TAKE US BACK TO THE IDEA OF ORIGINATING DIVISIONS SHOWING UP NOW.

>> I THINK MANY PEOPLE -- WELL, PEOPLE HONEST CAN ADMIT NAZI GERMANY DREW INSPIRATION FOR SYSTEMS THEY IMPOSED ON JEWISH PEOPLE FROM THE AMANIER CAN -- AMERICAN APARTHEID SYSTEM.

THIS IS A VERY KIND OF COMPLEX BUT COMPLETE SOCIAL THEORY THAT PERMEATES EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE.

WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM IN THE AMERICAN STORY?

>> WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO THINKING ABOUT HOW HUMANITY IS VERY, VERY OLD.

THIS COUNTRY IS RELATIVELY NEW IN HUMAN HISTORY AND WE'RE GOING BACK TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND ESSENTIALLY THE ENTIRE WESTERN HEMISPHERE COLONIZED AND CREATING A FORM, A SYSTEM OF HUMAN INTERACTION AND HUMAN EXPLOITATION WITH IT.

SO YOU HAVE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD WHO LOOK DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER CO-HABITING IN A SAME SPACE, OF COURSE, THIS WAS BUILT UPON THE EUROPEANS FIRST TOOK THE LAND AND THEY USE THAT TO CREATE A HIERARCHY BASED UPON WHAT PEOPLE LOOK LIKE.

SO THEY TOOK THAT AND ADDED -- CREATED A VALUE, ESTABLISHED A VALUE.

THEY LOOKED DIFFERENT FROM THOSE WHO ASSIGNED THEMSELVES AT THE TOP?

THERE IS NO NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT FOR EUROPEANS BEFORE THE TIME OF ENSLAVEMENT AND CREATION OF WHAT WE NOW SEE AS THE UNITED STATES FOR PEOPLE TO BE THINKING OF THEMSELVES AS WHITE.

THEY WERE GERMAN.

THEY WERE POLISH.

THEY WERE IRISH.

THEY WERE ALL THESE OTHER THINGS BUT DID NOT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES BY WHAT WE NOW HAVE COME TO SEE AS A DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC, WHICH IS THE BASIS OF OUR HIERARCHY.

WE NEED TO LEARN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY AND RECOGNIZE HOW SINGULAR WE HAPPEN TO BE IN A WAY WE DON'T WISH TO BE.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN A MINUTE AND THE ROLE, THE CRITICAL ROLE OF TALKING ABOUT HISTORY PLAYS IN ALL THIS.

BUT I WANTED TO ASK YOU WALK ME THROUGH THE SEEMINGLY DESPERATE ELEMENTS OF EVENTS RECENT EVENTS THAT YOU TIE TO WHAT YOU CALL THE UNSPOKEN CAST SYSTEM.

SO START WITH JANUARY 6th.

WHICH, YOU KNOW, HAPPENED SO SOON AFTER YOUR BOOK CAME OUT.

HOW DO YOU TRACE JANUARY 6th, THE MOB ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, THE COUP ATTEMPT AND ATTEMPT TO OVERTURN A LAWFUL ELECTION BUT HOW DO YOU TIE JANUARY 6th SPECIFICALLY TO WHAT YOU CALL THE UNSPOKEN CAST SYSTEM OF AMERICAN LIFE?

>> WELL, THE IDEA OF CAST IS ABOUT RANKING STATUS AND VALUE ATTACHED TO ONE STATUS.

HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING ANYONE DOES.

YOU'RE BORN TO IT AND AGAIN, IT'S BASED IN OUR SOCIETY IT'S BASED UPON WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE, WHICH IS TRANSLATED INTO RACE, SO IT EFFECTS ONE'S STANDING AND COMPETENCE AND WORTHINESS AND IT ACCORDS ENTITLEMENTS THAT ARE BUILT IN TO THE SYSTEM AND IF YOU'RE AT THE -- IF YOU'RE ASSIGNED -- YOU'RE FROM A GROUP ASSIGNED AT THE TOP SINCE THE FOUNDING OF OUR COUNTRY, THIS ARE BENEFITS YOU ARE GETTING WHETHER THEY'RE RECOGNIZED OR NOT, WHETHER YOU KNOW IT IN YOUR BONES AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE -- ONE OF THE REASONS I WROTE THIS BOOK WAS BECAUSE OF THE IMPENDING INVERSION OUR COUNTRY IS FACING DEMOGRAPHICALLY.

THE CENSUS PROJECTS BY 2022 OR 2045, THE DEMOGRAPHIC CONFIGURATION THAT WE HAVE ALL COME TO RECOGNIZE ADJUSTS TO LIVE WITH FOR AS LONG AS MANY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS EXPECTED TO BE OVER -- TO BE CHANGED SUCH THAT THERE WOULD BE THE HISTORIC MAJORITY WOULD NO LONGER BE IN THE MAJORITY AND THE 2020 CENSUS, THE BOOK CAME OUT IN 2020 BUT THE 2020 CENSUS, THE RESULT WHICH IS NOT AVAILABLE UNTIL 2021 SHOWED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY, THE HISTORIC MAJORITY OF WHITE AMERICANS FELL FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.

WHITE AMERICANS ARE STILL THE MAJORITY BY FAR BUT FELL FOR THE FIRST TIME OF WHICH DID NOT FALL SO THESE ARE -- WE ARE FACING A CRISIS IN WHICH WE ARE LOOKING AT A CONFIGURATION THAT NO ONE HAS EXPERIENCED BEFORE.

AND THESE ARE PRESSURES THAT ARE -- THAT CAN WAIL UP IN A SOCIETY.

THE DOMINANT GROUP COULD PERCEIVE THEMSEVES AS LOSING THE STATUS, THE RANKING, THE AUTOMATIC DEFERENCE AND ENTITLEMENT THAT COMES.

IT'S NOT PERSONAL.

IT JUST WHAT COMES WITH THE STRUCTURE OF OUR SOCIETY.

SO I BELIEVE THAT IS PART OF IT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS SIGNIFICANT IN LOOKING AT JANUARY 6th VERSUS WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD IS THAT GEORGE FLOYD AS WE ALL, YOU KNOW, HORRIFICALLY SAW WAS KILLED BEFORE OUR VERY EYES BUT HE WAS KILLED PRESUMABLY BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN ACCUSED OF HAVING TRIED TO PASS A COUNTER FIT $20 BILL, WHICH IS AN INFRACTION THAT IS GENERALLY HANDLED WITH A CITATION AND A COURT DATE SO HE SHOULD BE ALIVE TODAY.

THEN SIX MONTHS LATER, THERE WAS THIS -- WHAT WE SAW IN JANUARY 6th, WHERE THERE WERE INSURRECTIONISTS WHO BROKE INTO THE CAPITAL WHO, YOU KNOW, ATTACKED A POLICE OFFICER LEADS TO THE DEATHS OF HALF A DOZEN OFFICERS AND WE SAW AT THE END OF THAT DAY, THOSE SAME PEOPLE WHO HAD RAMPAGED AND RANSACKED LAWMAKERS ULTIMATELY RESULTING IN THE DEATH OF HALF A DOZEN OFFICERS.

WE SAW THE SAME PEOPLE WHAT I WOULD CALL THE DOMINANT CASTE IN OUR COUNTRY, WALK DOWN THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL WITH THEIR LIVES, SOMEONE THAT HAD BEEN DENIED GEORGE FLOYD JUST MONTHS BEFORE.

>> BUT WHAT ABOUT TYRE NICHOLS?

YOU ALSO TIE THIS TO CASTE.

AS WE NOW KNOW, THE FIVE MEMPHIS POLICE OFFICERS WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED IN THE DEATH OF TYRE NICHOLS, WHO WAS BEATEN TO DEATH AFTER A TRAFFIC STOP, ALL OF THEM ARE BLACK.

AND HOW DO YOU TIE THAT TO THE CASTE SYSTEM?

BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY THAT'S A BAD APPLES PROBLEM, OR TRAINING ISSUE, OR THEY'RE TOO EXPERIENCED OR TOO HYPED UP.

SO HOW DO YOU TIE THAT TO CASTE?

>> WELL, WE'RE SO USED TO THE POLARITY OF BLACK VERSUS WHITE.

SO THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THESE DIVISIONS THAT WE HAVE INHERITED AS AMERICANS.

BUT CASTE ALLOWS US TO SEE THAT THIS IS AN ASPECT OF THE DEHUMANIZATION THAT HAPPENS IS WHEN CASTE SYSTEM ESSENTIALLY POSITIONS SOME PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM AS FOCUSED ON KEEPING CERTAIN PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM SO THAT OTHERS CAN REMAIN SECURE IN THEIR PLACE ABOVE THEM.

AND, SO, WHEN YOU HAVE A SITUATION LIKE TYRE NICHOLS WHO SUFFERED UNBELIEVABLE SUFFERING IN THAT SITUATION, AND WE LOOK AT THAT AND WE REALIZE THAT THAT ALMOST ANY -- IN A CASTE SYSTEM, ALMOST ANY ATROCITY CAN BE DIRECTED TOWARD THOSE WHO ARE IDENTIFIED AND RECOGNIZED AS BEING AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE HIERARCHY.

AND THAT MEANS THESE ATROCITIES COULD BE INFLICTED UPON THEM BY ANYONE IN ANY GROUP INCLUDING THEIR OWN GROUP.

BECAUSE THERE ARE SENTINELS AT EVERY REALM IN A CASTE SYSTEM.

AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE IN THE DOMINANT CASTE IN ORDER TO DO ITS BIDDING.

>> I THINK WHAT I HEAR YOU SAYING IS THAT THESE FOLKS ARE OF SO LITTLE VALUE THAT WHATEVER HAPPENS TO THEM IS UNIMPORTANT, THAT EVEN OTHER BLACK PEOPLE OR THE PEOPLE OF MARGINALIZED GROUPS DON'T HAVE TO RESPECT THE HUMAN DIGNITY OF SOMEONE WHO BELONGS TO THAT GROUP.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THE SADDEST PART OF ALL OF THIS IS THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHICH GROUPS CAN BE SUBJECTED TO ALMOST ANYTHING, AND WHICH GROUPS ARE PROTECTED FROM THAT STRUCTURE IN OUR SOCIETY.

>> YOU ALSO TIE THE ISSUES AROUND RESTRICTING IMMIGRATION, PARTICULARLY AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

THE RIGHTS OF LGBTQ PEOPLE AND ACCESS TO ABORTION.

YOU TIE THIS TO THE CASTE SYSTEM BECAUSE YOU SAY THAT THESE ARE EXAMPLES OF DESPERATE EFFORTS BY A, QUOTE, DIMINISHING BUT DOMINANT SUBSET OF AMERICANS TO IMPOSE THEIR WILL ON THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THROUGH POPULATION CONTROL.

YOU KNOW, THE DEFENDERS OF THESE POSITIONS WOULD SAY, WELL, NO, THESE ARE OUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS THAT SPEAK TO THE IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING VULNERABLE LIFE.

AND IN THE CASE OF -- OR GENDER ROLES, AS THEY ARE UNDERSTOOD.

AND IN THE CASE OF IMMIGRATION I THINK PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, GOSH, IT'S THE CULTURE OR IT'S OUR LABOR MARKETS THAT WE'RE PROTECTING.

SO HOW DO YOU TIE THAT TO THE SAME UNIFYING IDEA?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY RELIGION HAS AN IMPORTANT ROLE FOR MANY, MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE GLOBE.

SO THIS IS NOT A CRITICISM OF RELIGION ITSELF.

BUT IT SO HAPPENS THAT, NOW, WHEN OUR COUNTRY WAS BEING FOUNDED AND THE HIERARCHY OF OUR COUNTRY WAS BEING ESTABLISHED WITH ENSLAVEMENT AS THE BASIS OF THE SOCIAL PROTOCOL AND ECONOMIC ORDER OF OUR SOCIETY, IT WAS BEING JUSTIFIED AND RATIONALIZED THROUGH THE BIBLE ITSELF.

THE STORY ABOUT NOAH AND HIS SONS WAS A FREQUENTLY REFERRED TO BASIS FOR ENSLAVEMENT IN OUR COUNTRY.

SO THAT THE BIBLE WAS DISTORTED AND CHRISTIANITY WAS DISTORTED TO AFFIRM AND RATIONALIZE THE HIERARCHY THAT WAS BEING CREATED IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND SO NOW THAT WE SEE OURSELVES FACING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS, A CIRCUMSTANCE WHICH NONE OF US HAS LIVED WITH, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN WE HAVE INVERSION OF OUR DEMOGRAPHICS, THERE WOULD BE EXPECTED TO BE A RESPONSE TO THE POTENTIAL INVERSION OF OUR SOCIETY.

BUT THESE ARE EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS THAT THE COUNTRY IS FACING.

AND THOSE THAT HAVE THE GREATEST STAKE IN MAINTAINING OUR HIERARCHY WILL GO TO GREAT LENGTHS IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THEIR PLACE IN THIS HIERARCHY.

>> THIS NOTION THAT YOU TALK ABOUT, THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK, THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IN YOUR OP-ED ABOUT REPLACEMENT THEORY HAS NOW GONE MAINSTREAM, IF I MAY PUT IT THAT WAY, AMONG A CERTAIN SET OF PEOPLE.

I MEAN, LANGUAGE, ARGUMENTS THAT WERE CONSIDERED PROFOUNDLY RACIST, THE PROVINCE OF FRINGE TERRORISTS LIKE TIMOTHY McVAY, WHO WAS A BELIEVER IN THIS REPLACEMENT THEORY, THIS HAS GONE MAINSTREAM NOW WITH A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A BIG PLATFORM.

AND SO I GUESS THE QUESTION I HAVE IS, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, IN THE TIME WE HAVE LEFT, TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS THE ANSWER HERE?

ESPECIALLY AT A TIME WHEN YOU'VE GOT A NUMBER OF POWERFUL ACTORS, GOVERNORS, YOU KNOW, STATE LAWMAKERS, ACTIVISTS, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS NOT JUST PUSHING THIS THEORY BUT ALSO TRYING TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO COUNTER THAT ARGUMENT WITH INFORMATION.

>> I THINK THE RESISTANCE TO KNOWLEDGE AS WE'RE SEEING WITH THE BANDS AND RESISTANCE TO UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN OUR COUNTRY MEANS THAT THOSE OF US WHO CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY, THOSE OF US WHO CARE ABOUT A FAIR, MORE EGALITARIAN SOCIETY NEED TO FOCUS ON MAKING SURE THAT WE KNOW ALL THAT WE CAN ABOUT OUR COUNTRY, THAT WE LEARN AND RECOGNIZE THAT OUR COUNTRY IS LIKE AN OLD HOUSE.

YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WHO CREATED THE UNEVEN PILLARS AND JOYCE AND BEAMS AND THE WIRING AND THE CORRODED PIPES.

BUT ONCE YOU TAKE POSSESSION OF THAT HOUSE, IT IS UP TO YOU, IT IS UP TO YOU TO FIX WHATEVER IS WRONG.

AND WE HAVE MANY, MANY SYSTEMS THAT ARE FACING CHALLENGES AND THE OVERHAUL, REPAIR AND OVERHAUL IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND THAT MEANS THAT WE HAVE A LOTH OF WORK TO DO.

THE BEAUTY OF DESCRIBING OUR COUNTRY AS AN OLD HOUSE THAT WE CALL AMERICA IS THAT IT ALLOWS US TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE DON'T GET ANYWHERE BY MAKING THIS SOMETHING ABOUT BLAME AND SHAME AND GUILT.

THAT WE HAVE TO ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET TO WORK TO FIX THIS.

BUT YOU CAN'T FIX WHAT YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE.

AND WE CAN'T HEAL FROM WHAT YOU HAVE NOT DIAGNOSED.

AND THE GOAL IS TO FIRST UNDERSTAND HOW DID WE GET HERE.

CASTE ALLOWS US TO SEE.

LOOKING AT THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF OUR COUNTRY, WHATEVER WE CALL THAT, ALLOWS US TO SEE THE DEPTH AND THE BREADTH OF WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST.

AND SO WE, I THINK, NEED TO LEARN TO RECOGNIZE OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY, TO KNOW HOW WE GOT TO WHERE WE ARE, AND TO NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN THESE THINGS HAPPEN, BUT TO GET AHEAD OF IT AND TO RECOGNIZE WHAT WE ARE FACING AS A COUNTRY IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS THE MOST EGALITARIAN, OPEN COUNTRY WITH THE MOST POTENTIAL.

WHAT I'VE DONE IS A PRAYER FOR OUR COUNTRY.

IT IS A PRAYER THAT WE FIND A WAY TO GET AHEAD OF THIS EXISTENTIAL CRISIS SO THAT WE CAN MAKE THIS A COUNTRY THAT WE WANT IT TO BE THAT'S EMBRACING OF ALL PEOPLE.

WE HAVE A CHANCE TO CREATE A COUNTRY THAT EMBRACES ALL AND THAT IS A FAIR AND MORE EGALITARIAN ONE FOR ALL, AND HOPEFULLY EVEN A MORE SUCCESSFUL ONE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

IT WAS A JOY.

>>>, AND FINALLY, AS I STAND WITH ST. MICHAEL'S CATHEDRAL BEHIND ME, I NOTE, OF COURSE, THAT IT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE LENT SEASON THAT LEADS UP TO EASTER.

IT IS ALSO THEREFORE THE BEGINNING OF CARNIVAL.

SO FANTASTIC COSTUMES, SAMBA SONGS RINGING OUT UNTIL DAWN AND PARADE FLOATS AS FAR AS EYE CAN SEE.

THAT OF COURSE IS IN BRAZIL.

A LONG WAY AWAY FROM HERE.

IT'S THE ANNUAL EVENT EMERGING IN ITS FULL GLORY FROM THE COVID '19 PANDEMIC AFTER TWO YEARS OF DISRUPTION.

♪♪19 PANDEMIC AFTER TWO YEARS OF DISRUPTION.

♪♪ BRAZILIANS WELCOME THE CELEBRATIONS BACK IN STYLE.

THESE REVELLERS ON THE BACK OF A GIANT TIGER FLOAT.

THE STRAETS OF RIO DE JANEIRO WERE PULSATING WITH THOUSANDS OF PARTYGOERS DANCING TO THE BEAT OF THEIR DRUMS.

♪♪ AND PERFORMERS ALSO COMPETE IN THE YEARLY SAMBA COMPETITION.

IT'S AN EVENT WITHIN THE CARNIVAL WITH DANCES, OF COURSE, VYING FOR A SHOT AT THE TOP TROPHY.

CARNIVAL RUNS UNTIL THE 25th OF FEBRUARY.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS AGAIN FOR WATCHING.

AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.